Matter of Facts: Does 'Less Lethal" Change Use of Force?

[00:00:03] Welcome back to the Matterfacts podcast on the Prepper Broadcasting Network.

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[00:00:17] I'm your host Phil Rabbley and my co-host Andrew Bobo is on the other side of the mic and here's your show.

[00:00:22] And welcome back to Matterfacts podcast. It's kind of a late in the evening on a Wednesday and

[00:00:28] you know sometimes when you have disparate schedules you have to try to ram together between

[00:00:32] myself and Mr. Bobo and Trek who is joining us from a secret location not to be disclosed to the

[00:00:39] general public. Tatooine. It's not half-planet, it's Tatooine. It probably looks like Tatooine honestly.

[00:00:48] But no we had to bring Trek in here to settle an argument because I put up a poll on Instagram

[00:00:52] and Trek the internet is deadlocked over which which me or Andrew is more likely to engage

[00:00:59] in some recreational welding on a Kamatsu bulldozer. Oh it's you. 100%.

[00:01:05] Yeah. I had to explain. I mean I had to explain Killdozer to my wife like she she voted in the

[00:01:12] poll she voted for Andrew by the way which I think we need marriage counseling now but

[00:01:17] she voted for him but had no earthly idea what Killdozer was who who Marvin Heemire was like

[00:01:23] the reference went straight over her head and halfway through me explaining to her she's just

[00:01:29] shaking her head like this is the man I married. So Trek it's been a hot minute since we've had

[00:01:39] Gian how you been? It has been a while you guys have been cheating out with me with all these

[00:01:43] other guests and I'm just I just can't even. Oh no thanks sir things are good we're out in

[00:01:48] once again in the desert of Arizona a little bit farther north because of everything that's

[00:01:53] going on down there from years past but yeah we're pretty much got back from a excursion out in

[00:01:59] the desert today and some clay hills looking for some zeolite crystals on the ATV and the dirt bike

[00:02:06] and got back just enough time to see you guys so things are good. That's awesome yeah I've

[00:02:11] been keeping track of your shenanigans down there and you got you got the misses there

[00:02:16] a nifty little toy to play on and then you even got yourself something. Yeah it's the junior version

[00:02:23] of the Delta Force bike is what I tell myself so I got Allison picked up Allison she wanted a four

[00:02:27] four-wheeler ATV and I picked up a Honda CRF 125 big wheel and had it outfitted for adult

[00:02:36] suspension and that way when it fall when I needless to say we'll wipe out I can pick

[00:02:42] the bike up off myself and I've already spray painted OD green and yeah it's a lot of fun so

[00:02:48] I've been tearing around the desert exploring places that we haven't been in years past so

[00:02:52] it's a good time. Well that's yeah that sounds cool yeah it cracked me up and you had it and

[00:02:57] I like the uh I think she posted it was an Instagram versus reality and it was like you

[00:03:03] writing or something and then I think reality was like you like it's stalling or something I

[00:03:07] remember now but um oh yeah she started filming for whatever it was and I was like this is where

[00:03:14] I'm gonna fall over or whatever and so the first thing was that I just stopped so the kill switch

[00:03:18] was still on and then of course uh I was in soft sand and instead of trying to get it going in

[00:03:24] first gear I was having good success in second gear but you really got to give it gas and so

[00:03:30] of course on video couldn't get it started because the kill switch is on and I stalled it

[00:03:33] starting in second gear and just that's the way real life actually happens.

[00:03:39] Yeah well it's uh I mean it's crazy because you guys took off and we've had we had a good cold

[00:03:45] snap there for a few weeks but it's actually been 40 to go I was in shorts today it was 36 out I

[00:03:53] believe and um a lot of rain we've had a ton of rain which you said that you guys are getting

[00:03:57] some rain here shortly. Yeah we're getting ready to have a with the broadcasting forecasting

[00:04:02] as a week of rain and possibly up to um a quarter to a half inch tomorrow which is

[00:04:08] incredible for out here I mean that's the when you hear about monsoons and flash floods and roads

[00:04:13] disappearing and rivers being created instantaneously that's kind of what everybody here in the

[00:04:19] the park with us we're all batting things down and getting ready for some wet weather but

[00:04:23] yeah it's it's funny when you say short weather it's a little bit different than

[00:04:26] short weather here but yeah as a michiganer I totally get that when it gets up to above

[00:04:31] freezing everybody's like let's roll the windows down go to the beach. Yeah I had uh I had uh today

[00:04:37] I had shorts on and uh the my my window half down in my truck and it was there you go

[00:04:44] it wasn't too bad but just an FYI if my wife ever happens to be riding in a car with either one

[00:04:50] of y'all and you try to roll the window down when it's 40 she's going to skin you and wear you

[00:04:55] like a fur coat. Challenge accepted. Don't don't play games with that angry little

[00:05:01] Cicillian bro she is warm nature. At least you know that if you piss her off she's not going to

[00:05:09] know what a kill dozer is and roll on so I mean you have at least that benefit right now.

[00:05:14] Yeah unfortunately she knows what a wooden spoon is and those are lethal.

[00:05:18] So I'll throw it at you. So brought you on for two reasons really one reason is we got talking

[00:05:24] about less lethal because and I'm going to throw this up obviously Trekk you can't see it but uh

[00:05:31] I got the less lethal 12 gauge rounds that basically sparked our conversation.

[00:05:36] Yeah and so we'll get we'll get into that shortly less lethal basically the uh I mean

[00:05:42] we can talk about kind of like the definition of less lethal and the myths I think you know we

[00:05:47] were talking about like the myths and people they their idea of hey this is less lethal I'm

[00:05:52] going to carry or I'm going to use it if somebody just steps foot on my property I'm going to do

[00:05:56] whatever um and there's some falsehoods to that. Um but but before we kick that off I want

[00:06:03] to touch on uh the Brian Terry foundation um you were recently at Shot Show for a hot second

[00:06:10] because you are on the board for Brian Terry foundation and so yeah just kind of tell us a

[00:06:16] little bit about it I mean I know some get some people if they don't know what it is

[00:06:19] please get your head out of the sand um out from under a rock and research who Brian Terry was

[00:06:24] and what happened to him and the atrocities that our federal government did uh that caused his

[00:06:30] uh continue to do and continue to do that caused his death uh so if it's something that I mean

[00:06:36] if you're I mean if it's something that you really want to get ticked off about I mean this is a story

[00:06:42] this is uh something that will make you angry at the federal government and for the ATF when they're

[00:06:47] trying to strip our rights away but they go ahead and just free will nearly you know really

[00:06:51] nearly just go across the border and do what they want but anyway before I go to off the edge

[00:06:57] here um yeah give us a rundown on the Brian Terry foundation and kind of like the deal that

[00:07:02] you're uh running with uh the spectacle lake and stuff like that yeah I appreciate it um so

[00:07:10] Brian Brian Terry uh board patrol agent he uh served on their the elite uh board

[00:07:17] tack team which is their special operations team you probably if you've been if people out there

[00:07:21] paid attention with the Evaldi Evaldi uh school shooting it was board tack that actually

[00:07:27] made entrance into that situation and took care of neutralized the the threat to the

[00:07:32] students and staff but Brian Terry was on a mission outside the desert of Rio Rico Arizona

[00:07:39] on uh 15 December of 2010 his team was armed with we're going to talk less lethal they had

[00:07:45] some less lethal weapons and of course their side arms and their their job was to intercede

[00:07:51] and stop some uh what is known as a cartel rip crew rip crew is someone that comes across

[00:07:56] looking for other cartel mules and then basically conduct arm robbery and steal their money cash and

[00:08:02] weapons whatever it is they're trying to illicitly bring into the country well during this

[00:08:07] nighttime encounter uh Brian's team basically walked into a firefight with this cartel rip

[00:08:14] crew and Brian suffered a mortal injury uh from a weapon that at the time not many people had heard

[00:08:21] about but it was a weapon from the infamous operation fast and furious meaning it was a

[00:08:25] weapon that the United States government whether solely to demonize the rights protected under

[00:08:31] the Second Amendment to stack statistics in the favor of gun confiscation or demonizing

[00:08:37] gun ownership that allowed uh to this day we still don't know how many but but tens of

[00:08:42] thousands of weapons uh into the hands of Mexican drug cartels through straw purchases and all sorts of

[00:08:48] other uh illegal shenanigans and so uh the Brian Terry Foundation was founded by his family

[00:08:55] to get answers and of course get justice for what happened to Brian Terry in the desert out there

[00:09:00] because uh Brian's Terry house was Brian Terry's house was raided by our own government afterwards

[00:09:05] he was a federal agent killed in the line of duty they raided his house they took

[00:09:09] all of his electronic devices his family still has uh has not gotten answers about why they decided

[00:09:15] to wipe a lot of his uh devices and things along those lines uh John Dotson the whistleblower

[00:09:21] from the ATF that was made famous on 60 Minutes basically uh lots and lots of people in our

[00:09:27] government were responsible not just the the people in the Mexican drug cartels but many high

[00:09:32] ranking members of our own government were responsible for this happening and directly

[00:09:36] and indirectly responsible for Brian Terry's murder and frankly and scarily uh the murder of

[00:09:42] hundreds if not thousands of Americans Mexican nationals and uh even uh to the fact that

[00:09:50] weapons from Operation Fast and Furious have been seen overseas uh in Europe and other places so

[00:09:55] it's a it's a very wide encompassing uh horrible situation that to this date because the

[00:10:04] Brian Terry Foundation and Foundation that's run 100% on volunteers uh volunteerism and donations

[00:10:10] from people that care uh to this day we have brought to justice all of the members of the Mexican

[00:10:18] cartel rip crew that were directly responsible for Brian Terry's murder they are now all

[00:10:22] serving very long sentences in American prisons but one thing that we can't stop is that the

[00:10:28] people that were responsible for it on our side of the fence uh they've been promoted

[00:10:32] they've been moved but they walk free and they're out there I mean Eric Holder for God's sakes was

[00:10:37] holding contempt of Congress uh nothing was ever done to him he was directly responsible for

[00:10:43] for this so to long story short starting back in 2014 I became involved with the Brian Terry

[00:10:49] Foundation by doing what was known as the Trek's Trek it was a 2,000 mile bike ride

[00:10:53] from Flat Rock Michigan where Brian Terry was born and raised to the Brian A Terry border

[00:10:59] patrol station in Bisbee Arizona and that was to raise money for the Brian Terry Foundation

[00:11:05] and during that ride it was 25 days on the road 60 to 120 miles a day on a bicycle solo

[00:11:11] unsupported we brought in about 30,000 dollars in donations which was awesome and then fresh

[00:11:17] off the bike seat with my rear end still hurting I went to Shot Show uh that year

[00:11:23] and with the help of my friends at ATI and Dark Angel Medical we rented a suite at the Venetian

[00:11:29] and it started inviting people I made I made passes on my home printer and laminator

[00:11:34] and it just turned into a fun party but we tried uh very last minute what was called the danger zone

[00:11:40] auction and people and companies in the firearms industry which are very generous people uh and

[00:11:45] all about law and order and just being responsibly armed citizens they started kicking in all these

[00:11:50] one-off products and we had this very impromptu auction that night in 2014 or 2015 as it was

[00:11:56] we raised another 30,000 dollars and I remember you know tears in my eyes telling all these people

[00:12:01] in this crowded hotel room after chanting USA at the top of our lungs you know how awesome it

[00:12:06] was in a matter of hours we just raised another 30,000 dollars to Brian Terry Foundation and if

[00:12:10] you guys had told me we could have done this in one night I wouldn't have had to ride across a

[00:12:13] country on a bike uh to do it but I'm very proud to say that since then uh the danger

[00:12:18] zone auctions have brought in over 250,000 dollars to the Brian Terry Foundation the

[00:12:23] problem that we're finding right now of course the economy and things like that is that there's

[00:12:27] still lots of missions that the Brian Terry Foundation is all about one of the biggest ones

[00:12:31] of course getting answers and justice for questions that are still not answered and people

[00:12:37] that are still responsible have not been brought to justice there are law enforcement officers

[00:12:41] in the border patrol uh that are being hurt injured and God forbid they lose their life

[00:12:48] serving their country the Brian Terry Foundation gives money to the families of those fallen

[00:12:53] border patrol agents and then of course we have scholarships for young people that are trying to get

[00:12:58] careers in law enforcement following Brian's legacy so with everything going on down at the border

[00:13:03] right now it's very easy for a story of one agent um no matter uh how well known at the time

[00:13:10] to start to slide into the cracks with just the awful tragedy that is occurring on our

[00:13:15] southern border and so I had the opportunity to go to shot shows very impromptu I was actually

[00:13:20] I've got a product that I brought to market looks like it's going to be picked up by a big company

[00:13:25] I'm excited to share that news hopefully publicly in a little bit but I also wore another hat and

[00:13:31] went there as a member of the Brian Terry Foundation Board of Directors and so

[00:13:35] we were just trying to spread the word and get people involved we didn't do a danger zone

[00:13:39] auction this year but we did raise a little bit of money and as part of that in the long

[00:13:44] winded response to your question is that uh I was very proud to be able to sell spectacle

[00:13:51] lake outdoor club it was the outdoor club in range that I had purchased I created a private social

[00:13:58] club sold shares and we were able to save spectacle lake outdoor club that is now a member owned

[00:14:03] club in alby in michigan and the board of directors have been very very generous they have just

[00:14:08] put up 10 shares basically you become an owner part owner of the club you are a lifetime member

[00:14:12] they put up 10 shares at $500 under the current share price that's $3,000 a share it's a lifetime

[00:14:19] membership where $2,000 if that goes to the Brian Terry Foundation and $1,000 goes to make

[00:14:25] improvements to the club uh unfortunately as of right now we've got till 7 February

[00:14:29] February we haven't sold a single one and I really just need help getting the word out

[00:14:35] there and hopefully there's somebody who likes to do a lot of shooting and boating and sitting

[00:14:38] around a campfire and love to be a member of a club where there's only 200 shares and that's just

[00:14:44] something that we're trying to do to to raise money to keep this foundation going because

[00:14:48] even though the members of the board do not take a paycheck at all not a single dime goes to them

[00:14:55] with scholarships with attorneys fees with helping out a board of patrol agents and their families

[00:15:01] in need with everything going on right now it's very quick and it can be very quick to empty

[00:15:05] a bank account so if anybody out there is not interested necessarily in buying a share they can

[00:15:11] go to honorbrientary.com the upper right hand corner is a donate button and even as I've told

[00:15:16] people I've spent so much money on silly things silly guns boxes of ammo $5 cup of coffee if you

[00:15:22] just go and give up one $5 cup of coffee and make a $5 donation that money goes gets used

[00:15:26] in a really great mission if you got a little bit more that's awesome but the way I looked at

[00:15:30] when I did my bike ride is that if I could get 5,000 people to donate 20.20 dollar bill

[00:15:36] that foundation would have been far better off than it ever would have been and if we can have

[00:15:39] that mindset where all of us kick in a little bit and I know things are tight we can do a lot

[00:15:45] of good just like the firearms policy coalition and a lot of the other organizations out there

[00:15:50] that do the fighting when we don't have the time this is a mission that I'm dedicated to and

[00:15:56] and hopefully we can carry on and keep the missions of the Bryantary Foundation operating for

[00:16:00] many many years so I appreciate you guys allowing this platform to be used to help the foundation

[00:16:07] so thank you yeah um and that's a thing is I just want to throw it out there to people too

[00:16:11] it doesn't take long at all I mean I don't want to like try to guilt or you know throw

[00:16:16] anything out on anybody but uh I mean and I donated uh and it took me I mean it's like

[00:16:21] nine and five minutes it actually took me I think maybe two and a half because I forgot to put in the

[00:16:26] Michigan in the state I left that blank and then it kicked it back to me and said

[00:16:30] hey you're stupid fill this out and so it actually took me an extra like 30 seconds to do that

[00:16:35] but basically I mean I have it up on the screen if you're if anybody's watching

[00:16:39] the live but if you're not basically at Bryantary Foundation yes honor Bryantary sorry

[00:16:47] honor Bryantary.com and then basically that comes up you have make a donation in great in orange and

[00:16:52] you have donate the very top uh basically go here you fill out this form um you can do a customized

[00:16:57] donation or you can just pick one of their pre filled out um amounts fill out the information

[00:17:04] and uh hit submit and I mean it's that easy so it's good it's a great cause so hopefully we

[00:17:10] can uh drum up some money for you guys I mean it's harder to file your taxes and nowhere near

[00:17:16] satisfying right but uh but yeah no it's uh it's it's great to have you on and talking about this and

[00:17:22] um it's something that needs to be reminded every once in a while everybody

[00:17:26] on his story and then basically I mean I hope anybody listen to this knows how crooked the

[00:17:31] government is but maybe this is just something that it'll kind of help cement that idea in

[00:17:37] but um but I you know I appreciate it and and it is exhausting and I'm sure we're gonna talk about

[00:17:43] it we always go off on some tangents it is exhausting especially with what's going on in the world

[00:17:47] right now in our in our country to try to focus on one issue because there are so many

[00:17:53] things that require a responsible citizen's attention this is an organization just like many

[00:17:59] others that will they'll take the funds that are so graciously donated and then you don't

[00:18:05] have to worry about the fact that they're gonna go take care of what you needed those that money to do

[00:18:10] and so you know just like the Brian Terry Foundation the Firm's Policy Coalition lots of great things

[00:18:15] out there that are fighting the fight every day so you can just try not to go insane

[00:18:19] with everything else that's going on in the world yeah no exactly yeah so no hopefully uh I'm hoping

[00:18:25] that'd be cool if we could help out a little bit but uh but onto onto the topic here less

[00:18:32] lethal uh so uh less lethal um you and I you you shot me a text uh with the picture of this from

[00:18:41] it looked like it was in was it in recoil it looked like oh tactical it was tactical life

[00:18:47] magazine is what it was and that's the life magazine yeah and it was a kinetic by um a company

[00:18:53] that it's it says kinetic on it less lethal I mean they and they're marketing this thing hard

[00:19:00] to less lethal and that kind of sparked the conversation between you and I uh over text about

[00:19:06] the just the the falsehoods of less lethal and the what people some people might not know or

[00:19:13] they might not understand uh that less lethal if you bring it out and you and you use it in the

[00:19:19] wrong in the wrong way you could still get in some serious trouble no absolutely and and it's been

[00:19:26] so long since we've had a good you know the the obry trial the written house trial and get the talk

[00:19:32] use of force and constitutionality of what we can and what we cannot do but we really have never gone

[00:19:37] down the uh the rabbit hole of of less lethal and and I am uh you know it's funny we talk about

[00:19:44] this I'm a huge proponent of less than lethal technologies I uh I had graduated from the Penn

[00:19:50] State less than lethal technologies course uh been hit with OC pepper spray over 20 times

[00:19:55] written lightning uh constantly trying to keep my eyes on that's what shot show you really see some

[00:20:01] great products coming out you see some train wrecks I mean one of them I remember one year was a

[00:20:07] under barrel mounted pepper spray dispenser and it was under barrel of an m16 so don't mind me

[00:20:12] pointing the lethal weapon at you I'm gonna hopefully at the right you know the right button

[00:20:16] and not to shoot you in the face in the live round but there are great technologies coming

[00:20:20] out and burn and this is we started the conversation about these kinetic 12 gauge rounds that are

[00:20:25] making that they look amazing the marketing department they look cool I kind of want it just

[00:20:30] because it looks like a it looks like one of those old Nerf footballs they look like a yeah high

[00:20:35] velocity little nerf football and I saw that and the problem was my blood turned cold after

[00:20:40] very quickly doing just a little bit more research going to their website and seeing

[00:20:44] what I believe was over 10 pages of comments of people that had purchased them and that were

[00:20:50] making comments like now my wife can feel confident about defending the home when I am not there

[00:20:55] and there's there's right things in that statement and very wrong things in that statement and if I

[00:21:00] as I went through I started to realize that stuff that I teach in our course called when a gun is

[00:21:05] not an option I built that class because there were two statements that I read when I first

[00:21:09] got out of the service on a forum called Michigan gun owners which is uh there's sometimes to be very

[00:21:15] valuable information but like most the internet there's a lot of really bad information that gets

[00:21:20] put on these online forums and the two statements that I remember was I don't carry pepper spray

[00:21:24] because I don't have a vagina that was the one statement and the other one was I don't worry

[00:21:29] about hand to hand defense because if someone tries to punch me I'm going to shoot them in

[00:21:33] the face of my J frame and I built that class because of those two statements of how we've all

[00:21:40] heard something very similar to those and how bad people that make statements like that it's not

[00:21:47] that they have bad intentions they are grossly ignorant but they are unconscious to their own

[00:21:53] ignorance when it comes to less than lethal technologies and constitutional use of force

[00:21:58] and so just like someone and I'm someone that makes a living training people in firearms and use of force

[00:22:05] I will still never ever ever call as a constitutional libertarian I will never ever ever support

[00:22:12] any mandates that an American has to train with firearms because one that would be very

[00:22:18] hypocritical for me as someone that makes a living that way but two it's about the rope

[00:22:22] of freedom you got to give an American say hey man I really recommend you go get training but

[00:22:26] you can carry that gun but understand if you shoot the wrong person I'm going to be sitting on the

[00:22:31] jury and I'm going to hold you accountable for what you did well the same thing applies to

[00:22:34] less lethal technologies if you bought it because you didn't you didn't have to go through the

[00:22:41] 4473 process and you thought the marketing was really cool and you use it either incorrectly

[00:22:48] or in a way that it wasn't intended or at a incorrect level of force you

[00:22:54] or either become a criminal or you could get seriously hurt and I always I call it it's tantamount to

[00:23:00] the captain of the Titanic waking up having his coffee seeing that iceberg just just catching it a

[00:23:06] couple seconds before it was too late yanking the wheel to the right and going man that was close

[00:23:12] you know what turn the boat around let's do that again and every day people in this country

[00:23:17] they put that gun on they put that OC on they put those 12 these 12 gauge rounds we're going

[00:23:21] to talk about on their person or in their defensive arsenal and every day that a bad guy the iceberg

[00:23:28] doesn't come close to them all as well but one day that iceberg is going to get in their way

[00:23:33] and instead of going right to get around it they're going to go left and they're going to hit

[00:23:36] that thing head on and that could be a court case that could be incarceration that could

[00:23:40] be huge lawsuits or it could be them getting killed or hurt because they didn't do it right

[00:23:45] and so yeah this this did spark an interesting discussion over text between the two of us because

[00:23:53] it immediately it's the the the industry will take your money and I have to I can't beat up on

[00:24:00] burnout we're going to get into it I can't beat up on burnout I can give you I'll give you lots

[00:24:04] of different products that are out there I don't think their marketing department is knowingly

[00:24:10] marketing and incorrectly I don't even know if the designers the rounds that work for them

[00:24:14] are knowingly marketing that correctly because they can be used appropriately but the way that the

[00:24:21] end user appears to be grasping them is setting themselves up for failure and so this I think

[00:24:27] is a great time to you know kind of get into what you can what you can't and and being 2024

[00:24:33] lots cool technology is coming out there you got to be very very careful because you might spend

[00:24:38] your hard earned money on it and it might be nothing but a force multiplier to your own incarceration

[00:24:43] and that's what I want to avoid yeah and that's the thing is like I'm reading through the comments

[00:24:48] right now on that page never read the comment oh man it's I went down that rabbit hole after you

[00:24:55] said something and it's I found at least a good three or four just on the first couple pages

[00:25:01] that are this is going into my self-defense my self-defense rotation I'm putting this in my

[00:25:06] shotgun for self-defense and great self-defense option and I'm like ah man I mean so let's get into

[00:25:14] that let's get into like the less lethal in a self-defense situation like when you can and cannot

[00:25:20] deploy less lethal before you start that though can I just take the briefest moment to thank

[00:25:26] you know Jesus Christ stoner John Browning and all the saints of Gundam that we now

[00:25:33] call it less lethal and not non-lethal which is like one of the greatest misnomers in this arena

[00:25:39] I've ever heard my life and like yeah you know you've told us before but like anything that comes

[00:25:44] out of the barrel of a firearm it's not not lethal it's less lethal I just want to take

[00:25:49] a moment to like point that out there that's done by intention but that wasn't always the way

[00:25:53] oh we're gonna go even we're gonna go further I'm glad you said that because he kind of set

[00:25:58] me up for where I was heading and that's to get into the definitions of non versus less lethal

[00:26:06] that's very very important to start things out so it's very common and it's the it's the uneducated

[00:26:12] gun person versus the gun dough right the person that knows like all of us we you know someone

[00:26:16] says I got to get a Glock what kind of Glock I want a Ruger Glock well you Glock we know Glock

[00:26:21] is a brand it's a modern old models but we hear somebody say I just got to get a Glock they

[00:26:27] might be meaning I get a pistol well you'll hear somebody say I got pepper spray I got a non-lethal

[00:26:31] weapon we know what they mean they've got a something that's not supposed to kill somebody right it's

[00:26:37] supposed to be used and what we call the intermediate level of force and so I'm going to

[00:26:42] I'm gonna go on Michigan law and then there will be some different and very similar definitions

[00:26:49] for the state that whatever listener is listening to so the levels of force that we

[00:26:53] have is a civilian and a law enforcement officer very very important these are the same levels of force

[00:27:01] that we get to counter the first one is no force well the first one is no force

[00:27:06] this is where we deal with what we call from a force continuum point of view when we're dealing

[00:27:12] with a subject and I mean subject not a bad guy but an opponent a use of force opponent

[00:27:16] someone that you meet that you don't know generally when I'm dealing with someone at

[00:27:20] the no force level I say good morning they respond with good morning we never see each other again

[00:27:25] they don't try to hurt me I ask hey can I get by to grab those crackers off the bottom shelf

[00:27:31] and they're like oh my gosh I'm in your way I apologize that's that's it that's no force that's

[00:27:36] 99.99% of the time the people thank god that we deal with unless you're of course in Baltimore

[00:27:41] Seattle Denver or just any of the big cities where they're all burning down right now

[00:27:46] the the next level that we have is what we have a intermediate force intermediate force now

[00:27:54] this is a little different because for us as civilians is we deal with this is this is hands

[00:28:03] feet and an intermediate force tool so I'm gonna that's the pepper sprays that is the

[00:28:09] um oh let's see the tasers and things like that I'll get a little bit more into it so

[00:28:15] intermediate force for us as civilians can only can only be used against assaultive people people

[00:28:23] that are trying to hurt us not kill us and that's very important now intermediate force hands feet

[00:28:29] and less than lethal technologies or intermediate force tools by law excuse me by law enforcement

[00:28:35] can be used at three different use of force levels and higher and they can be used at a

[00:28:41] passive resistant person meaning they're ignoring me it can be used against an active resistant

[00:28:47] person meaning they're looking me in the eyes and they're just not doing what I'm asking them to do

[00:28:52] or an assaultive person now for most law enforcement officers they're not going to just go

[00:28:58] unless you're that Berkeley cop that watered all the hippies that one

[00:29:02] that made memes for years and then there's more to that story but most cops don't just walk up and

[00:29:08] hose down somebody in OC or pepper spray because they're ignoring them you know generally they'll

[00:29:13] get in their face as in bend down next to him go sir ma'am I need you to move listen if you

[00:29:18] don't move I'm gonna have to grab you know have to move you and then of course if they get

[00:29:21] assaulted that's when things start to happen but I won't spend too much time here but I only

[00:29:27] say this because there's a very common misconception in the United States that cops are killing

[00:29:31] people like it's going out of style and the reality is cops can only use force aside from

[00:29:39] dealing with that ignoring past resistant person the big talker the active resistant person

[00:29:45] where we as civilians I can't if someone's ignoring me I can't punch them I can't kick

[00:29:49] them can't pepper spray them as much as I want to because they're driving me crazy and

[00:29:53] they're in no way and they won't get out of my way and the big talking guy at the bar

[00:29:56] that's just throwing his hands up saying what are you gonna do about it well as a civilian I

[00:30:00] got what am I gonna do about it I gotta walk away and he's not assaulted he's just trying to

[00:30:04] goat me into getting into mutual combat so law enforcement officers they can't kill somebody

[00:30:11] use lethal force until we as civilians can use lethal force not serious bodily harm and or

[00:30:16] death of themselves or innocent life period dot the end but cops do have this different

[00:30:22] ability to use hands on intermediate force at lower levels than we can reason why because

[00:30:28] when someone is sitting on my front step and they won't leave I have to call them to trespass this

[00:30:34] person and if they don't listen the law enforcement they get trespassed they don't leave

[00:30:38] they get yanked off my front step put the back of the squad car and handcuffs but I can't just

[00:30:42] punch the dude for being on my front step as much as it drives me crazy so the next level

[00:30:49] that we have other than intermediate force which is where we're going to talk about these

[00:30:52] less legal tools is we have what's called non-deadly force and this is a this is a

[00:30:56] Michigan specific term your state will have it and I can really make it easy for you if you've

[00:31:02] ever seen a cop on a felony stop their guns are drawn they're pointing at a human being

[00:31:09] they are not shooting that person but they are ready to shoot that person law enforcement do

[00:31:14] and by Michigan definition called non-deadly force which is the lawful presentation

[00:31:19] but not the utilization of a deadly weapon it's called non-deadly force in the state of

[00:31:25] Michigan it's case law every state's got it because otherwise cops would be brandishing their

[00:31:30] guns brandishing is the wild and unlawful wielding of a firearm around other people

[00:31:34] in Michigan they try to get they used to try to get people that would hold somebody a gunpoint

[00:31:39] for brandishing well now luckily there's a lawful delineation between it's the lawful

[00:31:45] presentation and here's what it means it means that I see somebody on top of another guy all

[00:31:50] sudden pull out a knife and I know clearly in this we get into the intervening other people's

[00:31:55] problems is there's some big things to watch out for but I know the totality circumstances

[00:32:00] there's an innocent person getting the crap pummeled out of them and the person that's the bad guy

[00:32:04] clearly on top of them pulls out a knife I'm a concealed carry holder I decided if I don't

[00:32:10] draw my gun to shoot that person they're going to stab that innocent person to death

[00:32:13] as I clear kydex and pointed at them they beat me to drop their knife as I'm adding trigger

[00:32:20] pressure well now they have lost the lethal weapon but they have their

[00:32:26] improximity the lethal weapon and a reasonable prudent person based on the reasonable person

[00:32:31] standard what would a reasonable prudent person have done if placed in the defendant's shoes

[00:32:35] knowing what the person at the time well if I put my gun away and this person was just

[00:32:40] about to stab in his own life a reasonable prudent person would believe that if I put

[00:32:45] my gun away he's going to grab the knife and stab this innocent person but he doesn't

[00:32:48] have the knife anymore and he's not attempting to stab this innocent person so I can't shoot him

[00:32:54] so I'm stuck in this very interesting very narrow space in the use of force continuum called non-deadly

[00:33:01] force if you as a civilian are finding yourself using non-deadly force lawfully you need to

[00:33:07] leave wherever you are cops do it all the time when they do a felony stop because what would

[00:33:12] a reasonable prudent officer have done if low light person was wanted vehicle matches description

[00:33:18] man they're going to have that gun drawn because they believe and a reasonable person would believe

[00:33:22] that there's a lethal threat in that car but that's why they don't draw down on you just for a traffic

[00:33:27] stop there's no reasonable person standard or officer standard to do that just at a nighttime

[00:33:32] traffic stop so then of course the last one that you know guys like me make the bread and

[00:33:38] butter if it's time to pull the trigger it's lethal force and I mean serious bodily harm

[00:33:42] and or death and that's why we go do a lot of force on force training to know when we can

[00:33:47] and can't do it so it's kind of nice because it breaks it down there's not once you can categorize

[00:33:54] where somebody is that it tells you everything that you can do and then the job is you've got to

[00:33:58] know your tools you have to know the tools are available to you so with no force it's my mouth

[00:34:05] and talk to somebody how you do it when it's if I'm dealing with as a civilian someone in the

[00:34:11] they're ignoring me or they're being a big talker I just avoid them I gain distance

[00:34:15] I gain distance and that way I can prove that if they're salted they're going to close distance

[00:34:20] on me so I just avoid those people they start to give me a problem go get a manager go call a cop

[00:34:25] get away from them that's all I'm going to do but now we find ourselves face to face with someone

[00:34:30] that is assaulted they're they're they're going to hurt us or they're hurting us right now this

[00:34:36] is where the term non-lethal and less lethal has hit the market and there's lots of tools out

[00:34:42] there that have been marketed for good people to defend against intermediate force threats or assault

[00:34:49] of threats the common ones that are out there are chemical irritants such as OC which is pepper spray

[00:34:56] earlier resin capsicum CS which is tear gas orthoclural benzene nitrile and I'm only saying

[00:35:02] that to impress the listeners and then CN which is mace and I can't pronounce the chemical name

[00:35:07] so OC CN CS those are chemical irritants they're in the state of Michigan aside from a very small

[00:35:15] little loophole OC is going to be your only friend because CS and CN are pretty much a no-go

[00:35:21] for the most part and I'll save us time on that explanation and then we have controlled

[00:35:25] energy weapons that's tasers they like to change it CEW or EMD electro muscular disruption

[00:35:32] weapons uh there are two types tasers and stun guns if you're listening to this and you have a

[00:35:37] stun gun in the state of Michigan one it's a felony to carry don't um I won't get into legalities in

[00:35:44] state of Michigan on tasers but if you have a stun gun they're crap they only work on pain

[00:35:48] compliance you have to be with an arms reach but you see all the made in china advertisements

[00:35:53] out there where they're like 1 billion volts doesn't matter it hurts sounds scary uh yeah if you

[00:36:00] had somebody in the right in the back of the neck you might be able to make them do the electric

[00:36:04] boogie but the problem is once those things are no longer touching somebody they stop working and

[00:36:10] then of course tasers tasers very expensive great technology when they work uh they've I even heard

[00:36:15] from one of the leo's at shot show that they have a new model that's going to be a 10 shot

[00:36:20] taser geez that's cool and it evidently shoots one little barb per shot so you can link a

[00:36:27] circuit of like nine bad guys with 10 rounds which is pretty damn awesome but they're usually $50

[00:36:33] plus a shot they're really cool they have limited uh effective the cartridges are they fail a lot

[00:36:40] that's why when you see leo's use them one there's usually more than one leo and they've got what's

[00:36:46] called lethal backup meaning if this taser doesn't work I got another guy with a gun

[00:36:49] in case the guy goes lethal um but they're really cool technologies right those are the two

[00:36:55] bread and butter meat and potatoes uh families but the neat thing with technology and where this

[00:37:00] conversation is struck up is other things are starting to appear um and I'm I'll call bernard out

[00:37:07] and frankly I would talk to bernard about this and I'm not dogging them because I believe their

[00:37:13] stuff works and that's very very important note it's just the lack of understanding of what

[00:37:20] people are buying that I think is the catch so there's a company called bernard uh one of the

[00:37:25] companies out there that are starting to make what I call atypical less lethal and so um as we

[00:37:32] mentioned uh non-lethal needs to get out of our it needs to go away uh it is just like clip

[00:37:40] versus magazine people in the know it just makes their teeth grind when they hear non-lethal

[00:37:46] um where you will hear non-lethal is nlta that is non-lethal training ammunition

[00:37:53] truth be told it ain't non-lethal because if you shoot somebody not wearing protective gear

[00:37:58] it could definitely hurt somebody but I like the fact that they call it non-lethal training ammo

[00:38:03] meaning if you're in a properly established training area and you have the sterile the

[00:38:09] sterile training area combined with the proper training weapons these rounds if the people

[00:38:14] that are involved or not are wearing the proper protective gear there will be no casualties and

[00:38:20] this is when if you come to mdf 5 force on force classes we use called utm or fx or spear force

[00:38:27] on force law enforcement it's a big deal and if you heard won't go too far off a tangent the atf

[00:38:33] just banned all civilian use importation of nlta training ammunition uh yeah it that's a whole

[00:38:43] other topic for me to lose my mind about but yeah um it's important I think what do you call non-lethal

[00:38:48] nlta non-lethal versus lethal real firearms ammunition but what we've done for the intermediate

[00:38:55] force tools is the approved and appropriate term is less lethal and as phil pointed out

[00:39:00] it doesn't mean non-lethal it means that it's not supposed to kill you but it sure as hell

[00:39:05] could kill you it absolutely could uh generally if it's not used as intended but sometimes

[00:39:11] even when used as intended it could still cause death and so good old american lawyers have made

[00:39:17] sure it's not non it's less uh to give the listeners out there kind of a fun bit of info

[00:39:24] the israelis have a very big change in definition of less lethals a ruger 1022 is a less lethal weapon

[00:39:33] as in they shoot rioters in the legs with 22s jeez right now don't try that in the united states

[00:39:42] the swiss that are responsible for one of my favorite um less than lethal tools the jpx projector

[00:39:51] or the python jpx projector the swiss consider less lethal to mean less lethal than rifle fire

[00:40:01] well that's my handgun so i don't like that definition either uh but they have a whole different

[00:40:06] uh use of force continuum overseas in europe and other countries but for the united states

[00:40:12] the united states it's less lethal meaning it is designed to be used against assaultive threats

[00:40:17] existing in the intermediate force realm meaning someone is trying to use their hands and feet

[00:40:25] to damage you but not cause serious bodily harm and or death and so what you can do is use these

[00:40:32] tools generally they are what we call artificial reach meaning they extend the reach of my hands

[00:40:37] and feet so i don't have to get into a uh self defense um hand-to-hand fight i can

[00:40:43] hose somebody down six feet away with pepper spray i can hit him with taser barbs 15 feet away

[00:40:49] and i don't have to put myself in jeopardy because if anybody has watched ufc there are many stories

[00:40:55] of the guy that was supposed to win gets hit with one lucky punch or kick and it's all over

[00:41:01] so when you're within arms reach of somebody doesn't matter how good you are you run the

[00:41:05] risk of getting your your clock run so this leads us and i apologize for spinning that up but

[00:41:12] that's that's the important stuff that needs to be known before you get into these cool nerf

[00:41:19] footballs and things that are very like it urna is just going to kind of take the

[00:41:23] we're going to take the brunt of this discussion so um the big thing about well every american needs

[00:41:30] to know that is not an active on duty law enforcement officer is that if it is shooting

[00:41:38] stabby or bludgeoning so if it shoots something with explosives if it has a sharp edge on it

[00:41:47] or if it is designed to have weight to be swung with the human body giving it kinetic energy

[00:41:55] those are not less lethal tools period dot the end now

[00:42:03] the danger is freedom that's also the benefit and i'll give you a great example in the state of

[00:42:09] michigan you can own it was actually funny a conversation with the mdfi alumni came up

[00:42:13] you can own black jacks and saps and claps and batons and shirukens and ninja stars and

[00:42:20] all these crazy you know you can have the cold steel catalog in your home can't carry them

[00:42:26] outside your house or off your property so if you want to walk around your property

[00:42:30] with like 12 ninja stars rock on uh in indiana when i teach down there you can have

[00:42:38] collapsible batons those are the asp batons that you see law enforcement officers less and less

[00:42:44] carry if you actually notice leo's are not carrying these things much because we have as a culture

[00:42:51] we see law enforcement have this on their belts and when do we see them using it

[00:42:55] when they have a violent attacking subject they're trying to subdue to take into custody

[00:43:02] we see videos of the officers that are swinging these collapsible tons well the problem is okay i

[00:43:09] can buy it indiana says i can carry it when it's in the hands of a civilian it is a lethal weapon

[00:43:17] it can crush bone it can crush skulls it can kill if you see the training program that leo's

[00:43:24] have to go through the target for those when they strike the body the head the back and the chest

[00:43:30] are completely red you are not allowed to strike because you can kill somebody with those kinetic

[00:43:35] weapons they're designed to do great pain and livable damage to the arms and the legs but

[00:43:42] it's very well known that they've broken arms they've broken legs and when someone accidentally

[00:43:47] as the report was written get their head in the way they get a crushed skull and they die

[00:43:51] and so a lot of law enforcement officers in departments have gone away from those because

[00:43:56] of the liability from lawsuit of not trying to do too much force but accidentally through the

[00:44:02] the use of the baton doing too much force and actually maiming and killing people right so

[00:44:09] if it's shooting stabby or bludgeony saps black jabs collapse black jacks collapse with tons

[00:44:15] um those are no go and i'm always terrified when i hear that someone's teaching a civilian

[00:44:21] blackjack class well if i can carry a blackjack or a sap which are lead filled or weight filled

[00:44:28] leather sacks you see in the movies they're like get in the car see and they smack him upside the

[00:44:33] back of the head and the guy goes out uh he didn't go to sleep he was knocked unconscious by

[00:44:39] this kinetic weapon that hit him in the back of the head uh yeah that's not good um now

[00:44:44] they're a cool when we get into improvised weapons and gunfree zones like the mean gene hot tamale

[00:44:49] it's the coolest coin purse it's almost say it's the coolest in air quotes in air quotes it's the

[00:44:55] coolest coin purse and when i have it on me it is a coin purse it's not a sap not a blackjack

[00:45:00] that is my coin purse but if i was in a gunfree zone and now i'm faced and this is where it

[00:45:06] was going to lead us to me shutting up for at least five minutes now we get into a situation

[00:45:11] where i'm faced with a lethal threat when i am faced with a lethal threat anything at my disposal

[00:45:18] becomes good to use and so if i am in a gunfree zone and i've got this walking stick that i built

[00:45:25] that has a cue ball from a pool table with a three inch bolt and three thousand pound epoxy

[00:45:30] on the end of that walking stick and man i've had a limp all week before i went to that concert

[00:45:35] and wouldn't you know at the moment i got through security i didn't have my limp anymore

[00:45:39] but i had this cool walking stick and all of a sudden the guy opens fire in the crowd and all

[00:45:43] i've got is got that walking stick and man wouldn't you know that cue ball in the end makes a hell

[00:45:47] of a collapse or uh extended baton with a skull crusher on it if i crushed that dude skull with

[00:45:53] it because he's facing new lethal force it's good to go it's absolutely good to go if i

[00:45:57] have pepper spray and a lighter and someone tries to kill me i can i can light that ice

[00:46:02] propanol or uh ethyl alcohol in a big stream of fiery pepper juice all over them and that's

[00:46:08] perfectly okay the matter and means become moot but now now we have these cool technologies

[00:46:15] and let's go to the burn up um it is a 12 gauge nerf little nerf football that doesn't use anything

[00:46:22] but a primer but it's loaded into a 12 gauge shotgun a real firearm that's shooting and it

[00:46:30] is now fired out towards a what is being marketed as a intermediate force threat here is the issue

[00:46:39] is that i am not a specially certified law enforcement officer i am not running a bright

[00:46:44] orange shotgun that says less lethal i am not doing crowd control or riot control as my duties

[00:46:50] require me to do and now i have a trespasser and i come out of my house with a double barrel

[00:46:56] shotgun loaded with these rounds and i point said shotgun at trespasser now let's break this down in

[00:47:02] the elements of a crime trespassing is a crime generally civil infraction or misdemeanor but

[00:47:06] in order for it to even be that i have to be trespassed be trespassed by law enforcement meaning

[00:47:11] they tell me i'm not supposed to be there and then i go there anyway well that's when i get

[00:47:15] taken to custody most people the moment they're trespassed they leave they never come back

[00:47:19] but i encounter a property owner who points a shotgun at me now the property owner knows

[00:47:23] he's got these old nerf football it's just going to make me yelp if he shoots at me

[00:47:27] i was trespassing i didn't have harmful intent i am a concealed carrier i didn't see the no trespassing

[00:47:34] sign and now someone is pointing a 12 gauge shotgun at me the reasonable prudent person

[00:47:38] believes that imminent threat of serious bodily harm and or death there that trespasser who was

[00:47:43] by very definition breaking a crime becomes the victim of an assailant of lethal force

[00:47:49] draws fires and it is a good shoot and the problem is the stuff is marketed you can buy it

[00:47:58] and people don't know so what we have to do is we have to we have to spread the word

[00:48:03] and we have to understand that okay so i would say to burna there is only one time

[00:48:10] one time for the average citizen that your product fits the legal bill

[00:48:15] and that is for the family members that we have that have ever said to us we all have them

[00:48:20] i want to defend my home but i could never take a human life burna you have created

[00:48:27] the best product because they can especially in the state of michigan you're in my home

[00:48:33] intent to do serious bodily harm is there all i need is a billion opportunity intent allows me

[00:48:38] to point my double barrel shotgun you don't need to know that i've got burna less lethal rounds

[00:48:43] but if you decide to go lethal and give me the ability or opportunity that i need to pull the trigger

[00:48:48] on that person in my house instead of me dropping them with slug or buckshot they're gonna yelp

[00:48:55] and the worst part is for that person they have to hope that the yelp changes their mind and

[00:49:00] they run out because if they just take that round and we've all seen people in riots

[00:49:05] take those bean backgrounds and they just get mad but congratulations burna according to

[00:49:11] constitutionally use of force you have created a round for the people that don't want to defend

[00:49:15] their home and kill a human being but that's the that's the problem we have these these tools out

[00:49:20] there that they look good they make a great magazine ad they will sell like wildfire um

[00:49:26] but they're setting lots of those people that andrew talked about up for failure yeah i mean i was

[00:49:31] while y'all were talking i was looking at the website and trying to figure out like

[00:49:35] what exactly are we dealing with here and i saw the part where it said it's only

[00:49:40] powered by the primer no powder i'm digging into my reloading knowledge so you're talking about

[00:49:45] roughly the roughly the chemical propellant energy of about a half a grain of gunpowder

[00:49:52] in an average primer which is like 22 short level of pressure for a 22 caliber bullet push

[00:50:01] on like a 40 grain you know 40 grain 22 caliber bullet upsize that to 12 gauge and i'm assuming

[00:50:07] the projectiles made of plastic i mean basically this is just shooting the world's ugliest nerf darted

[00:50:14] somebody yeah and and and i will give uh so i don't want to call burnout too much any if you go to

[00:50:21] cabela's if you go to bass pro shot even before this product came to market and i have i buy them

[00:50:26] every time i see him to use as uh um visual aids my classes you can get rubber buck shots

[00:50:33] rubber slugs a lot of times they're marked animal control um yeah you know yet it's it's uh you don't

[00:50:39] have a permit for a nuisance deer for lethal rounds you have deer to keep getting in your vegetable

[00:50:45] garden uh you want to step out back put one of these burner rounds or the all the other things

[00:50:50] you can buy cabela it'll spook the deer give them a little bruise and they'll take off run and

[00:50:55] maybe go to somebody else's field um so they're not the first ones to do it and i will give

[00:51:01] credit i have seen the videos of those shooting and they are moving uh burn oh when they first came

[00:51:07] to my knowledge as a product i have done lots of testing on co2 powered semi-automatic uh

[00:51:15] pepperball launchers and all of them are crap in my opinion except for burn up um i put one up

[00:51:22] of me firing i bought a bright yellow one if you're going to do a less lethal tool i always

[00:51:27] recommend skittle colors is what i like to call it that that scream it screams less lethal to any

[00:51:33] responding leos uh but i bought a bright yellow it's eight shots semi-automatic uh pepperball gun

[00:51:41] and i was i was very impressed when i read the design and even when i fired it the problem with

[00:51:47] all the other little co2 powered ones out there if you ever had a bb gun when you're grown up

[00:51:50] put the co2 thing in if you let that thing sit for 10 minutes the co2 would leak out and then

[00:51:55] your bbs would start to drop out every other model uh made in china crap that i have seen uh either they

[00:52:02] they the magazines will break the pepperballs which now you're inhaling pepper powder or they leak out

[00:52:08] all the co2 and you get absolutely anemic velocity the burner it it punctures the co2 capsule the

[00:52:15] moment the trigger is pulled on the first shot very cool and it does work uh they do rock it

[00:52:22] they're very accurate for the distance that i saw so i i do have one i i show students that

[00:52:27] if you really need to have something uh if you don't want to have a lethal weapon at home okay

[00:52:33] then the problem is pepper juice or pepper powder in your home where you're trying to breathe so

[00:52:38] they offer this these kinetic rounds and they are like a solid plastic round now i've seen videos of

[00:52:45] the other guys that were dumber than me that volunteered to get shot with them i saw them

[00:52:50] put the rounds through a good size sheet of plywood i saw grown men screaming in pain when they got hit

[00:52:56] with them and i'm sure they are not pleasant but i also think back to the days of old when i used to

[00:53:01] play paintball in the winter and i'd come home with these looking like i had been in a riot in a

[00:53:06] major city and i remember yelping but i didn't die and if i was mad chances are you would have

[00:53:12] just covered me in little bruises and i would have been really really bad so the problem is

[00:53:17] like you said co2 even a primer they are going to move uh but you are really hoping on pain compliance

[00:53:23] and now the burn of the benefit excuse me the benefit of the burner uh pepper ball launcher

[00:53:29] is it is not a firearm uh now in the state of michigan we get into some silly firearm definitions

[00:53:35] but in the majority of states because it cannot fire a live round of ammunition you can

[00:53:41] fire that at someone in their intermediate force you can point it somebody that looks

[00:53:45] like they're about to do or imminent and there's actually a father there's a video out there and

[00:53:49] i wish i had it uh his his ring doorbell system a uh mentally uh mentally disturbed individual walks

[00:53:58] right through his front door encounters his teenage daughter who screams and then immediately

[00:54:04] goes running out because the father's got a bright orange burn up and is basically challenging

[00:54:09] the guy at pepper point saying hey get out of here the safety's off and if that dude had taken

[00:54:15] one step towards him he could have it was not a trespasser it was someone that imminent anyone

[00:54:21] would have believed uh would have been an imminent assault and he could have stitched that dude up

[00:54:25] with pepper rounds or or the the ballistic rounds but you would have to hope that the guy's

[00:54:30] motivation gets changed but the moment burn says load this in my shotgun i am in a either

[00:54:38] world of legal hurt or you grossly restricted when i can actually use that damn thing and that's

[00:54:45] uh what i would suggest to burn up is make it not 12 gauge if they really want to go through

[00:54:51] that don't make it 20 gauge don't make it 410 make it some sort of of gauge that doesn't exist

[00:54:58] in a live fire realm and make a special pump action less lethal launcher and i can say shotgun

[00:55:05] a special rifle less lethal launcher and you'll sell the hell out of it and then to me

[00:55:10] i can say all right i still don't think it's the best idea because you're sure as hell not going

[00:55:15] to conceal carry the thing but now it's not a real firearm and now people are out of you know

[00:55:20] that danger and they can make the thing fluorescent red that would make me even happier yeah my

[00:55:26] biggest thing my biggest thing with this and then i mean honestly my biggest thing uh against

[00:55:32] less lethal is especially if you don't have a lethal backup i mean if you're carrying less lethal like

[00:55:40] yeah i mean you know i uh was it um not kem uh kimber don't they they make that little the

[00:55:46] little pistol ball launcher right yeah the pepper about uh pepper yeah so i mean like that that

[00:55:54] that thing is you know you have that on you have that maybe i'm one side or in the holster that

[00:55:59] you can get with it uh but then i mean i just my biggest thing is the less lethal

[00:56:05] it that it implies less lethal so like what you said track is you're hoping that if you pepper spray

[00:56:11] somebody if you hit somebody with a pepper balls if you know you actually use the

[00:56:16] you use for some reason somebody kicks in your door and you were like well i'm gonna

[00:56:22] use my less lethal round and you shoot them and then the guy behind them you know and you

[00:56:28] have it it's like nah i'm gonna have my the power the power of grayscale in my hand and uh it's it's

[00:56:36] going to go down because if they kick in your door if you got somebody that's going and coming

[00:56:40] into your house entering your home they're they're showing some kind of intent and uh i'd rather

[00:56:46] have the option the right option in my hand to begin with and then less lethal but that's

[00:56:51] just me so yeah so you know you you bring up a good point i'll i'll speak in two different

[00:56:56] ways we have two different ways to look at it home and out home and out um when i first met my beautiful

[00:57:02] better half alison uh she had lived she lived with her sister in a duplex condo uh near novi

[00:57:08] michigan and uh when we first moved in together she had told me about how one day in the summer

[00:57:12] her and her sister had left the screen door open and usually it was locked our student the

[00:57:17] screen door was closed but the main door was open they usually locked the screen door

[00:57:21] and one day they forgot they lived in this big condo community and in walked a very

[00:57:25] in the middle three o'clock in the afternoon in walked a very intoxicated woman who thought

[00:57:30] that they were in her house and was demanding screaming that they get out and they could not

[00:57:35] get this woman out of the house and she asked me what would i do with it i'd do with that

[00:57:39] situation and i said uh i would ask her once and then she would be used as a battering ram

[00:57:44] through the screen door i wouldn't have drawn my gun because i i have to look at my side you

[00:57:50] know she said it was a smaller stature woman but i have an inebriated person that's in

[00:57:54] my house home invader and now the law says well she has the intent to do me serious bodily

[00:57:58] harm or death okay my trained cell for my grown six with two self says yeah i'm you're giving

[00:58:06] me that legally but i'm not drawing my gun on her i'm just going to escort her using intermediate

[00:58:11] force because i'm absolutely allowed to protect my house uh in that manner and she's gonna get

[00:58:16] out i'm gonna slam the door and lock the door and call the police but so for home i never

[00:58:21] recommend that anybody uses less than lethal for home defense that being said because what's if

[00:58:29] someone's coming into my home generally people that are breaking into a home know that there could be

[00:58:33] a homeowner in there and what the hell is your plan for a homeowner well they're there they're

[00:58:37] probably going to do me serious bodily harm and or death to do whatever they're doing otherwise

[00:58:41] they would be a cat burglar and they would never come in when i was there because they

[00:58:50] of course i've got you know 800 square feet 1000 square feet worth of weapons lethal weapons

[00:58:55] everywhere okay but by our front door and by our back door is a four barrel uh jpx4 uh launcher

[00:59:04] and that's for uh me as the critical thinking human being going all right i grabbed the shotgun

[00:59:12] because i heard the front door come flying open but i encounter this very inebriated person

[00:59:16] that's now demanding and get out of my house that person's going to get to be a test case

[00:59:20] when i put down my shotgun and i'm going to hose them with 450 mile an hour oc and make them look

[00:59:27] like an oompa loompa right because yeah i don't have to wait to pull the trigger according to

[00:59:32] michigan law i can protect persons in property with intermediate force uh chemical irritants and so

[00:59:38] chance now i say this chances are i'm probably going to physically if it's a smaller statute

[00:59:44] person than i am not believing i'm going to get sucker punched and knocked out but at the same

[00:59:49] time what if they do have a knife on them do i want to get with an arms reach versus i'm going to

[00:59:54] give them a verbal challenge and i'm going to hose them down 450 mile an hour pepper spray i might

[00:59:58] have to clean my wall afterwards there's going to be a perfect outline of where they were standing

[01:00:02] from the blast uh but they're going to get shut down they're going to go to respiratory

[01:00:06] distress and then it's going to allow me that if they have lethal intent they're not going

[01:00:11] to be able to see me anymore and not going to be able to breathe and if they if i change their

[01:00:15] motivation they're going to shut the door behind them on the way out for daily use i always have

[01:00:21] a less lethal on if you see me in public i have a less lethal now there's i won't go too far in

[01:00:27] the rabbit hole but there are three i call them three tiers of less lethal yet personal size

[01:00:32] everybody knows what those are keychain pepper sprays little tiny things uh they're good for

[01:00:36] one use and one use only duty size which is like a law enforcement size duty bell pepper spray unit

[01:00:43] and then you have a cruise serves that's like the jpx4 that i keep it's it's huge i would not

[01:00:48] carry this thing around it's bright yellow and it looks like a q 37 space modulator um if you know

[01:00:55] i tried to carry it around there's no way i could hide it i always have a personal size

[01:00:59] less lethal on me uh the the current one i'm i'm fielding as a palm i like it very non-descript

[01:01:07] i've done test test shots on them they have good distance for their size uh if the formula

[01:01:13] is wicked just like any other formula i've ever been hit with uh and they're it is very non-descript

[01:01:18] got a cool color ring so i could have a different color for allicens and a colored ring for mine

[01:01:22] so we don't get them mixed up uh just for if we're worried about expiration dates or

[01:01:27] use um and then in my go bag with me the bag that all of us always have i have a jpx projector

[01:01:35] that is the two-shot version about the size of a glock 19 and i have a

[01:01:39] raven concealment vanguard holster for it that was custom made a while back and why i have that

[01:01:45] is there are places that i may have to go as much as i try to avoid them that are quote

[01:01:49] unquote gun free zones um that right there in the state of michigan is not a firearm it

[01:01:55] is a pepper spray well now i have a pepper spray gun that goes 23 feet at 400 and 400 miles an hour

[01:02:02] that's a hell of a lot better than my little palm now what i will have with me is all of a sudden

[01:02:08] man i've got my mean gene hot tamale coin purse with me i've got this walking stick that i made

[01:02:14] i've got this uh whatever it is that i could never use against an intermediate force threat

[01:02:21] but it sure as hell makes an improvised lethal defensive weapon if i had to it's just not a

[01:02:28] firearm so i always recommend carry less lethal especially if you're dealing with a

[01:02:33] an assaultive person uh which the majority of americans will have one type such encounter

[01:02:39] in their life statistically um i might be able to stop it at the assaultive level the intermediate

[01:02:46] force level um and if they choose to go to the lethal force level they will be diminished in

[01:02:52] capacity and that helps me out immensely and then of course we have to educate our friends and

[01:02:58] family and listeners a lot of people believe that if you have a less lethal and you are carrying

[01:03:03] a lethal weapon that you have to go from no force to less lethal force to lethal force

[01:03:08] that's not true at all if they go from zero to 100 skip it don't even worry about less

[01:03:13] than lethal you can go right to your gun if i'm employing my less than lethal and all of a sudden

[01:03:18] i thought they were going to try to punch me and i see them go for a knife on their waistband

[01:03:21] drop that less lethal like it's hot go to your gun if you do not have to stick with what you had but

[01:03:28] i love the fact um that i don't have to go from hands and feet to gun i like having i've got

[01:03:35] six feet of range that if someone's even charging me and if i am paying attention to my

[01:03:41] environment like the other night oh my god i stayed off the strip uh in vegas i was put up by

[01:03:47] the breach bank clear crew they were about a mile off the strip uh it's some cool lodging but once you

[01:03:52] walk off the strip it gets pretty sketchy really quick and i had my lethal blast drawn me but in

[01:03:58] my hand in my hand safety off was my oc i don't have to uh society doesn't if you see a young

[01:04:07] lady walking to her car with a pepper spray in her hand they don't call the swat team it's it is

[01:04:12] considered by society a defensive weapon only so granted it's dark but i have my oc ready to go in case

[01:04:18] somebody goes from me saying good evening and all of a sudden they go assaultive i am already staged

[01:04:24] and ready to go and my lethal weapon is on my body as well but if i were to walk down the street

[01:04:29] with my j-frame in my hand that's a swat response because that is someone looking like

[01:04:35] they're getting ready to go offensive versus defensive and so that's we have to look at

[01:04:40] societal norm as well so yeah i'm absolutely with you um there are people out there that are

[01:04:45] defending their home currently with less than lethal weapons make good life choices i don't

[01:04:50] recommend it if you're one of those people and god bless you and you're like i am going to defend

[01:04:54] my home but i don't want to take a human life my suggestion for you is an 870 surefire

[01:05:00] streamlight mod light weapon light on that thing and load that to but plus two extension

[01:05:05] and as the most wicked bean backgrounds you can get because you need to crumple that person into a mess

[01:05:12] you really have to because if they're motivated and that is the downside is that

[01:05:17] all less lethal tools do is stop an unmotivated person they do not stop motivated people

[01:05:24] the goal of the less lethal is to turn them from motivated to unmotivated and that's a very very tough

[01:05:32] pill to swallow so um you know that and that's what our like guys like special forces and swat they

[01:05:38] go through that's what the suck is all about that's why there's buds and they treat these guys like

[01:05:42] crap they they kick the quit out of their bodies if you encounter a bad guy and i have done

[01:05:48] after action investigations of security teams that have dealt with guys that were either on drugs

[01:05:54] or had that no quit attitude you can hit them with whatever oh see uh less lethal you want

[01:06:00] yeah they're diminished but they are still in the fight and so now you just have to embrace

[01:06:06] a little bit of the fact that they can't breathe as good as they used to and they can't see as well

[01:06:10] because now you got a dude that's in full rage mode and thank god he can't see you all the time

[01:06:15] because you might need to make some uh movement choices sorry that's a lot

[01:06:20] yeah it's like it's i'm i'm passionate i'm i'm passionate no it's always fun uh i mean phil and i

[01:06:26] every time we have you on it's you leave us thinking more uh and how can we improve our situation

[01:06:32] and then how i mean just more thinking you leave us thinking more and that's then that's a good

[01:06:38] thing and i hope the people listening i mean i hope that it engages them and gets them thinking

[01:06:42] as well yeah you know i've had the question asked okay trek you are you're you're you can snap your

[01:06:50] fingers like lowkey and you can make the ultimate less lethal um you know taser i love what taser's

[01:06:58] doing their reliability you know it's it's it's a $50 shot and 50 of the time in my testing

[01:07:04] it doesn't work but their technology is great they had or they had a round for a specially

[01:07:10] made mossberg shotgun uh you can find them on gunbroker they're bright yellow and black they

[01:07:15] only fire they only fire the taser 12 gauge round and it was a it had like a capacitor in it it would

[01:07:23] go up to about 100 feet when it hit somebody it had the oomph of a of like a bean background but

[01:07:29] then it would basically cover their their body with little mono filament electrical lines and

[01:07:36] cook them for 30 seconds like a taser but then you could be far far away it was very accurate well

[01:07:42] at $100 a round police departments just weren't they just weren't having it and so it kind of

[01:07:48] went under but if you can if a company can make something the size of a glock 19 that cannot fire

[01:07:54] a live round that is bright fluorescent yellow or orange that has these little tiny like a magazine

[01:08:01] a 15 rounds of air fired darts that have a taser capacity of 30 seconds in it the amount of lives

[01:08:10] that would be saved and no believe me i'm not crying for bad guys to die sometimes they just

[01:08:15] deserve it to get shot a lethal weapon but if you think about all the people that go assault

[01:08:19] at first that if it's not a real gun and it 30 feet away a responsibly armed citizen

[01:08:25] using this less than lethal tool that is not a real fire i'm not quite not capable of firing

[01:08:31] a live round uh can stop that assault of threat 30 feet away and it's gonna it's gonna make them do

[01:08:36] the electric boogie on the ground for 30 seconds well they grab their family and get to the car

[01:08:40] and get away i mean these are this will happen eventually and so i i i will never tell people

[01:08:47] less lethal are bad but you've got to know one you should have a tool that you can afford

[01:08:52] to test fire you've got to know how it's going to work um and and and you just got to know the

[01:08:58] legalities of what you are incorporating into your defensive carry bubble and just a lot of people

[01:09:04] are like oh shiny buy it and that's you can't just stop there you've got to become a master of

[01:09:10] your pools just like we train with firearms well i mean that to me that just echoes something

[01:09:16] that i've kind of pejoratively half jokingly told lots of people in the gun community for years

[01:09:20] which is you know like you go buy your first glock 19 or your first j frame in a box of ammo and go

[01:09:26] home and think it's a magic talisman against bad guys and that's not the way any of this stuff works

[01:09:32] it's a tool you got to know when to use the tool how to employ the tool where does the tool work

[01:09:36] where does it not work what to do if the tool fails because everything that's mechanical will

[01:09:41] sooner or later sure i mean it everything we've talked about for the last hour and 10 minutes

[01:09:46] to me just kind of like it dovetails really nicely back into the idea that if this if a nonly if a

[01:09:52] less lethal tool is going to be in your toolbox you have to know when it is and it's not appropriate

[01:09:59] to employ that tool tactically and legally you have to have some kind of idea of how to

[01:10:05] employ it so it works properly and does what's supposed to do and you have to have some kind

[01:10:09] of confidence in it that it's gonna work and i hate to nothing gets burned i mean i've been

[01:10:15] i've been looking at the product page it's interesting technology but like you cannot

[01:10:20] put all of your faith into how good somebody's ad department is at depicting their stuff like

[01:10:27] for i think you're right though track for that person for that person out there that says

[01:10:31] i could never drop the hammer on a living breathing human being this might be a good idea because

[01:10:38] at least like break it down in the layman's terms what i'm getting from you is that for

[01:10:42] the average homeowner any situation they would employ this would also be a situation they probably

[01:10:48] employ lethal force in other words like there's a huge overlap between this and 12 gauge buck shot

[01:10:54] and there's this tiny little sliver you would use this and not a lethal round for an average

[01:10:59] homeowner yeah with today's technology i would recommend whatever gun you choose from defense

[01:11:04] i won't get into the gun a gun versus b gun uh fight but uh get a cruise service o c the

[01:11:10] bear spray get the big old 30 foot range giant bear spray that you can't hide anywhere bad day and it

[01:11:16] can put put velcro put velcro on one side of it i think they even have little carry cases

[01:11:22] and mount that carry case right by your front door there's your less lethal option that's if you

[01:11:27] don't i mean if the situation doesn't call for lethal force 30 feet away you can literally

[01:11:33] coat a human being with 10 o c anyone that doesn't change their motivation at that point i would be

[01:11:41] very uh very impressed so yeah i mean there are there are combos out there and that's i mean

[01:11:49] if it wasn't for the jpx force sitting by my back door that i would have a can of uh either riot

[01:11:54] style o c or bear spray which is just a it's pepper spray labeled for bears i'd have that at

[01:12:00] the front and back door for a less than lethal option but yeah shot mounting things firing out

[01:12:07] of the shot shotgun in my opinion is only if you're that following that category of the

[01:12:13] not willing to take human life wanted to spend your home okay uh rock on uh judging by i'd be

[01:12:19] very curious with this product i've saw some common i still until proven would go with

[01:12:27] like law enforcement contract beanbag rounds ones that when you see the guys get hit in the

[01:12:34] riots they kind of crumple over like someone kicked them in the junk those would be uh the rounds

[01:12:39] that i would go with these um i'm gonna buy some i'm gonna test them out because that's what i do

[01:12:43] i spend my money so other people don't waste theirs uh in a very similar bit of info in a

[01:12:49] record number january 22nd my fingerprint cards got into the atf today they approved my over

[01:12:55] under short barrel shotgun project which very well may get spray painted bright orange with

[01:13:00] white stencils that still say very lethal on the side instead of less lethal so uh yeah just if

[01:13:09] you load it in a real gun right now unless you're a law enforcement officer i would not

[01:13:13] unless you fit in that special category and that's just going to save you from all sorts

[01:13:17] of legal trouble uh and especially geographical geographically speaking with everything

[01:13:22] that's going on in this country if you live in a blue state hell no don't even texas they they

[01:13:28] didn't even indict the takaria shooter so i think it's just a free for all down in texas and we'll

[01:13:33] have to talk about that another show yeah interesting no everything yeah like i said you come on and

[01:13:38] you leave us uh wanting more information which is a good thing uh but uh but no uh let's recap

[01:13:44] though but uh first off again if you guys for uh brian terry foundation uh go to honor brian terry

[01:13:53] dot com uh click donate it only takes a couple minutes and uh yeah if you can donate one dollar

[01:13:59] or five bucks whatever um it's gonna go to a it goes to a great cause so i really appreciate

[01:14:05] anybody who does donate um yeah thank you but uh but trek for those of the people that don't

[01:14:11] know where to find you where can what's the uh what's there some ways they can get a hold of you

[01:14:17] yeah so the website is train mdfi uh train mdfi dot com uh if you want to reach me directly if you

[01:14:25] got questions about the show or if you want me to nerd out on less lethal i mean we can just

[01:14:29] have a phone call if i'm bored i'll call you up we'll talk about it it's trek at train mdfi.com

[01:14:35] that's my direct email uh the company is info at train mdfi.com um our season starting up here this

[01:14:42] month uh my team thundercat tim nelson lead instructor and brand amitama those guys are

[01:14:48] kicking off our indoor classes at barrick 616 and grand rapids i am getting back right about

[01:14:55] april fools day and then i start into our 2024 season i think as of today we're about 40

[01:15:01] percent filled uh it's so weird with the economy and politics you just never know how training

[01:15:08] season is going to go but um classes are filling quite well so if you're interested in taking a class

[01:15:14] jump on it sooner than later and if you enjoyed this this discussion i'm really happy to see

[01:15:20] finally after many years of our when a gun is not an option indoor seminar seminar class it's

[01:15:27] all about constitutional use of force show and tell of less than lethal tools we're starting to

[01:15:33] see those classes really fill and that's i think uh because of the discussions that we've had on

[01:15:38] on this show so when a gun's not an option we've got them at not just guns in mason michigan

[01:15:45] mount pleasant black creek range we've got a barracks 616 and grand rapids definitely jump in

[01:15:51] we'll nerd out and talk about how to defend you and yours when a gun's not an option but

[01:15:56] yeah that's it um northern woods training uh that that's uh northern woods training dot com that is our

[01:16:02] non-lifephire training like freda asuna we've got him coming in for an anti tracking and camo

[01:16:08] stalking class this year haven't heard back from ed calderon yet i'm waiting on him to confirm

[01:16:12] his dates you have bushcraft classes and all sorts of stuff and i'm happy to say that

[01:16:17] spectacledic is no longer my baby but it is in the hands of good people and it has not been

[01:16:22] saved as a conservation club in the state of michigan so uh yeah i'm i'm one less hat this year

[01:16:30] and i'm okay with that yeah right um no yes if anybody if anybody is interested in uh picking

[01:16:37] up any of those shares uh to support the brian terry foundation and uh s lc uh if you i mean

[01:16:43] trekk dropped his contact information if you cannot get a hold of him for some reason or you

[01:16:47] don't remember uh drop me a line go to the contact form my mfpodcast.com and i'll put you guys at the

[01:16:54] contact with each other uh and then get that going but um well no trekk thanks for uh thanks for

[01:17:00] coming on man i'm looking forward to when you and alison are home uh since i didn't get to see

[01:17:05] you guys before you took off because work schedule and all that life crap and adulting

[01:17:09] but i look forward to seeing you guys and uh i'm in the shotgun class in mount pleasant so that'll be fun

[01:17:14] yeah i'm uh black creek is our new home range and and jeff to jeff and his guys are uh definitely

[01:17:20] working on making it a hell of a training facility and i'm looking forward to teaching

[01:17:23] there this next year awesome yeah it looks like a really nice range no absolutely well cool well

[01:17:29] thanks for thanks for coming on and uh yeah i got nothing else i'll go ahead and punt this one

[01:17:34] out if you're interested in seeing more seeing here more from trekk train and hate me i just

[01:17:40] screwed that completely up you know mdfi.com if you would like andrew to be the test dummy for

[01:17:47] these burner rat these burner connect headache rounds i encourage you to go on social media

[01:17:51] and bully him until he volunteers to get shot by one of these things by track i see a brian

[01:17:55] fundraising opportunity and if you would like to contribute to my amateur welding operation

[01:18:03] i accept bulldozers and i accept cash but you could always just enjoy more of the insanity

[01:18:09] by following the podcast so you don't miss an episode and we'll talk to you on another week bye everybody see

[01:18:14] it