[00:00:03] You're listening to PBN. Your path back to stability here.
[00:00:55] It's about preppers practicing, preparing, learning prepping skills in the city of New York. And that is called Bracing for the Apocalypse. The second book is where we hit the ground running and you have preppers testing their skills, testing their their metal during the pandemic. And that's called Urban Preppers in the Pandemic in New York City. I want to thank you for reaching out because this is a great this is such a perfect and timely topic for our audience.
[00:01:24] I mean, it really is the destination, the situation, the first book leading into the second book. It's like, you know, exactly what people in our community want to read about and figure out and see, you know, what people in one of the biggest cities in the world really prepare for and what they really did. Like we know only maybe a handful of people who make prepping content, who live in New York and say they live in New York.
[00:01:51] And, you know, so, you know, that kind of thing. But so I guess how how did you decide to get to this point where you're like, I want to study the prep culture in New York? Because I think a lot of people would assume that there might not even be one. I mean, I don't know. How did you like how did that come to me? That's that's an excellent question. First, let me say thanks so much for having me today.
[00:02:18] And I really think that your point is well taken about, you know, saying, well, this is, you know, the it's important that people understand, you know, that there are preppers in the city and trying to figure out what they can contribute to the conversation about, you know, prepping and survivalism. I think that the real issue here is that the the we're living in an increasingly, you know, risky society, both not just in cities, you know, but across the country, across the world.
[00:02:46] And so I think that when you talk about the prepper conversation, I would argue that this population that the community is definitely growing. So I'm definitely glad to be here and talk about the interesting things that are happening in the city.
[00:03:01] And the reason why I got interested in prepping and wanted to write about it as a sociologist, but also as a New Yorker needed needing to figure out how I needed to how I could survive, you know, different disasters was for was the fact that I was living in the city and was coming up on the short end of the stick and decided to check out a prepping group that had been covered in The New York Times.
[00:03:29] You know, it was right after Hurricane Sandy. I had been there for September 11th and all of the other things that have happened, you know, in between. And I was the person who had, you know, the flashlight, but no batteries, you know, or the peanut butter, but no bread or no matches because, you know, I in it because one of the interesting things was I moved to New York.
[00:03:55] And when I grew up in the South and when I moved to New York, I thought, oh, this is great. You know, there aren't going to be any hurricanes anymore. You know, I'm not going to have to worry about all those East Coast things. You know, that was me and my naivete talking. Right. And I understood, you know, the importance of preparing because my father was in the military and I took it for granted that, you know, everybody did this. And this was me as a young adult figuring out, OK, hold on.
[00:04:24] I'm on my own now in the city with my husband. We've got to figure out what to do. I can't depend on dad anymore. So that was another, you know, another component, too. And I went to the New York City Preppers Network group meeting and, you know, it changed my life. It changed how, you know, it reinforced, you know, how I, you know, questions that I have about culture and questions that I have about, you know, being prepared in the city. What was that group like? Lots of people?
[00:04:54] Yeah. Yeah. Here's the interesting thing. Usually when they have in-person meetings, you know, there are about like 30 to 50 people. But when you take a look at the people who follow online and the people who are registered with the group, you know, it's usually north of 500. Wow. Which is interesting. Yeah. Which is interesting because you have to get and then you have, you know, a few thousand on the Facebook app.
[00:05:24] And, of course, that's people who are officially registered. That's not people who come to meetings and don't necessarily sign up but who are members who are kind of trying to be a gray man, so to speak. So there's definitely a lot of people out there. And that's just people, preppers who are independent, who are registered with, you know, who are part of the group. I've met a lot of independent preppers who are affiliated with the group at all who live in the city. That's incredible.
[00:05:52] So are you saying in the group itself, you're dealing with about 500 preppers who would show up to these things? And, you know, at different points. Usually about 50 people during meetings, you know, because they have meetings, they have excursions, they have workshops. They have all sorts of things. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:06:13] And then you have people who, and then you have another group which is formed a couple of years ago, which includes New Yorkers as well, which is Urban Outdoor Survival Group. And they do a lot of really interesting things as well. So now they're two groups plus independents as well.
[00:06:34] So I would say that it, and plus, plus, there's also a group of HNW preppers, which are very separate, very independent, even more secretive than regular preppers. And those are called HNW? High net worth preppers. No way. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:06:53] In other words, we're talking about, you know, the millionaires, the multimillion, you know, you know, the billionaires who are interested in prepping and they come to it from a different perspective. You know, a lot of these people are involved in finance and they're familiar with dealing with risk and trying to protect themselves against risk. And prepping is one way to do that for your family. They're flying out of the city in a helicopter type deal. I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Part of their play. Yeah.
[00:07:22] Or they have second, you know, they have second homes, you know, that they can, you know, that they can go to, you know, some even have panic. Well, I don't want to say panic rooms. I'll say panic apartments because they're much bigger than one rooms. You know, apartments within apartments and all sorts of, you know, really interesting, really interesting things. Very cool. Yeah. I had no idea there was hands on.
[00:07:46] Well, I guess as much hands on and sort of exploratory and skill based practice in those prepper groups in the city. But there's a lot of opportunity, right? I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. City navigation, that kind of stuff. Yeah. City, you know, at first, you know, there's the whole, you know, the basically working with the two different philosophies or we'll say survival strategies and prepping. Bugging out. Okay.
[00:08:11] And that would involve things like groups getting together, figuring out what a meeting point would be and then walking across the GJW bridge and then figuring out how they're going to manage, you know, life, you know, a life outside, which is what they do a lot for their excursions. Yeah.
[00:08:27] And then you also have the idea of bugging out, which, of course, the pandemic showed us, you know, how, you know, trying to, you know, figuring out how to keep your family safe in small quarters, especially during a pandemic, you know, a pandemic with, you know, a very contagious COVID-19. So when did you start feeling better prepared?
[00:08:52] Like, what were some of the, like, did you put extra food up and then you were kind of like, okay, I'm getting somewhere now. When did you start to feel like you were making some progress? Well, here's something really interesting. And it's maybe kind of a question for you too. Sure. When I went to, when I went to the meeting and started to see how people were planning and how they were thinking and what they were doing, the first sense I had was, I really don't know anything at all.
[00:09:17] You know, I, you know, and there's that kind of that, that sense where you're like, well, you know what, I've got to hustle. I now know if I want to feel, you know, if I want to feel safe, I need, you know, I need to take this seriously. This isn't a game. This is a philosophy. It's a lifestyle. So that was a, I mean, a big game changer for me. It wasn't just getting flashlights for the battery. Right. Right.
[00:09:49] I think the biggest, I'm just taking a pause for a moment because it's, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's been a few years now and it's still emotional. I think one of the, one of the things, and I write about this in the book that was so, so meaningful to me was that my first book came out, believe it or not, in 2020. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Late 2019, early 2020.
[00:10:14] And, um, actually they had, um, no, in 2020 because they had me revise the, I requested actually to revise the end of my book. And I think that the prepper, prepper group, um, for making sure that I was ready for the pandemic, because, um, I was one of the few people, you know, um, who we were prepared.
[00:10:35] You know, we had food stores, um, and most important, we had, um, proper, um, N95 masks to wear, you know, they were already available in our bug out bags. These weren't things that we needed to scramble and try and find on eBay. And, you know, we already had all the, uh, you know, all the stuff so that we could, you know, a good start. So we could think for a moment, okay, what else do I do now?
[00:10:58] And not just what can I do for my family, but how can I help respond to questions and help other people? Yeah. That was probably the biggest curve ball with the pandemic is because it was, it was a working SHTF. Like it was a, uh, you know, I'm sure in the prepper groups, they talked a lot about, and we talk a lot about it too. Those types of disasters where everything grinds to a halt and the whole world has changed forever.
[00:11:27] And what was probably most, what made the pandemic such trouble was that it was, uh, it was a working SHTF scenario. You know, like even those people, some people didn't work and, you know, all that kind of stuff or work from home and all that, like life went on. And it was, but, but it went on masked. It went on restricted. It went on, you know, all that kind of thing.
[00:11:50] And that's, that seemed like, and, and to us who probably, you know, who aren't in New York city, most of us watching and listening, we always thought like those areas probably are really going through it because there's so many people so densely populated and probably so unprepared. Like, you know, it, it, it was, it was really interesting.
[00:12:10] Um, Marlon Smith, the head of urban outdoor survival, which is again, is a, it's, it's, um, now based in New Jersey, but it's, uh, you know, a New York, New Jersey, um, um, group. And Marlon used to be part of the, um, the New York city preppers group. He said something that I thought was terrific. He said, yeah, had, um, I'm just, uh, he said two things that I thought were important.
[00:12:33] And the first one he said was, you know what, we have to stop when there was all of this confusion in terms of, you know, the government changing policies every day and, you know, people, you know, the government really being overwhelmed and, you know, incapable of responding. He said, we have to stop listening to these people, you know, people, you know, P you know, we, we have to, you know, focus on, you know, ourselves and being self-reliant and figuring out what we can do to protect ourselves because, you know, the gut, there is no Calvary coming. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:02] That's a huge lesson that a lot of people have to learn. And I think that more and more people are learning it, but that is a lesson that people had to learn. I think a lot did learn through 2020, 2021 was like, there's no magic. There's no magic. You know what I mean? There's no group that's going to come. FEMA is only so big. There's only so many people and so many resources. And if it's a nationwide situation or worldwide situation like pandemic, then it's just, there's not enough people to help all the people.
[00:13:32] We don't have a whole nother, you know, population of people going to come and help you in those sort of situations.
[00:14:05] And, yeah. No, it was. Yeah. And I think that's a lot of people are in your neighborhood or the neighborhood adjacent to you, you know, that were being used as morgues. Morgues for Americans. You know, it's a very, very different scene. You know, when as a professor, my receiving emails, you know, from students about the loss of their parents, you know, I have had one student in my class. God bless him. He lost everyone. He lost everyone. Can you imagine being a young person and losing your parents and losing your siblings and then losing, you know, your aunt and uncle?
[00:14:36] How do you, you know, how do you get up in the morning? You know, and it's, and so all of these, these personal, very specific, specific things that people dealt with, people lost their jobs. Right. You know, they lost, you know, so, you know, a sense of, um, they, I'm going to say a loss of reality, but we entered into a different reality. Oh, definitely was a loss of reality. You were right. Yeah. What we saw as reality for a long time changed entirely.
[00:15:05] I, you know, I'm still floored. You know, when, when I think about some of the things that, you know, people went through, excuse me. And also, I think, you know, their, their issues, and this is just a sidebar, you know, given the changes, um, given the fact that it was a pandemic, when we lost someone, we weren't allowed to properly mourn. Yeah. You know, which makes sense for safety reasons. Yeah.
[00:15:31] So a lot of people didn't get closure and you see a lot of, you know, a lot of stress and a lot of anxiety and a lot of heartache because of that still. So we're dealing, you know, with, with all sorts of things in the post pandemic world. Things I, I don't even believe that we even realize yet. You bring up a really good point about the, I have to explain something that we talked about back in early 2020 here on PBN.
[00:15:59] And when we, we were looking at this thing, kind of like a lot of people were looking at it, like what, what's going on? And we're lucky enough to have a guy on the network, uh, Dave Jones, who was nuclear biological and chemical warfare specialist in the army. So as you can imagine, he had some good takes on everything. And, uh, when we were trying to meter out, like how, like, what's the appropriate response?
[00:16:24] Cause we, you know, at probably just like your prepper group in New York, we were never looking up to the government and going, what exactly should we do here? You know what I mean? We were using the expertise that we had and people we knew and that kind of thing. Um, but one of the things that Dave said and your comment about the 18 wheelers, I never heard that before. So that's wow.
[00:16:43] What a thing, but, but it raises a very interesting point because one of the things Dave told us was, you know, if people in your community and people in your neighborhood stop, start dropping dead. Like this was probably January, February when we first started talking about it, he was using this kind of as a metric. He said, that's, that's when things are serious. That's when you really need to start thinking about, you know, not leaving the house. Cause we didn't know, you know, enough about it yet.
[00:17:12] Um, for, for a lot of our listening audience and a lot of people who we have like 13, 14 hosts here at PBN, a lot of people who do shows, they don't live in New York city. And what I never thought about until just now is even their reality was much different. Like I live in a young neighborhood in the South, less population by far than New York.
[00:17:36] So we didn't have anything remotely looking like 18 wheeler morgues parked out front of neighborhoods blocks. So Dave's metric, I never thought about this, but Dave's metric can look different in different places. And that's really important to consider. I never thought about that until you mentioned the, uh, the amount of people dead there. Yeah. The geography is very, you know, very different.
[00:18:02] And also, you know, it's, it's interesting, you know, one of the things that, um, I thought was really important when you, when you say, you know, not relying on government, not waiting on government. One of the things that, um, um, are, uh, the, the chairman of our department, um, um, Andy beverage, um, did what he, he, he was retired. He had just retired.
[00:18:25] But anyway, one of the things that he did was, um, put together, uh, um, uh, basically ran a calculation to show that if our school closed, how many lives we would save. You know, cause we were waiting for, yeah. Which was really important. And, you know, in, in, in started, you know, communicating with the chancellor, you know, and, and, um, there was a, uh, one of our professors reached out to the media and, you know, basically, you know, trying to, you know, network to convince our school to close early.
[00:18:52] And our department, um, actually transitioned online early, you know, before we had the official go ahead, because there, um, because there wasn't anything that we have to say to our students that, you know, um, is worth risking your life over. You know? Sure. So yeah, because a lot of, a lot of kids in the Queens College area, um, um, we have a very diverse community and this speaks again to the geographical, you know, differences. They tend to live within extended families.
[00:19:19] So by having a young person, even though people were saying, you know, you, young people are okay, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, in the beginning when they were saying all of that, having a young people, a young person come to our classroom, you know, catch COVID from someone and bring it home to his or her grandparents, definitely problematic. You know? So when you say, you know, that the, the, um, people kind of stepping out, um, uh, people thinking about what they can do, there's a variety of ways, right?
[00:19:47] That when we think back on it, that we all did try to do what we can to help protect and save other people, which is important because people always think about preppers as isolationist, you know, with the people. Oh, I don't want, it's just me and mine.
[00:20:02] And I would argue that, you know, they certainly served as a important information resources, um, you know, providing, you know, um, um, help, advice, support, um, and, um, uh, goods when people needed them. Definitely. Yeah. You're opening my eyes up to this thing that I think comes from, I think some things in the prepper community certainly come from overwhelm.
[00:20:28] Um, and I think one of the things is big cities and you're, you're opening my eyes up to this fact that there's a lot of information to glean. And there's a lot of good information when it comes to looking into big city disaster response, because I think a lot of, a lot of people in our community just kind of write big cities off. You know what I mean?
[00:20:53] And in, in doing so, um, we don't pay attention to the things that you're saying right now. You know, we don't, we might just say, well, you know, they're in New York, they're screwed. You know what I mean? That kind of thing. Or thank God I'm not there or something along those lines. And there's a lot, there's, yeah, there's a lot that you guys have to handle and a lot that you probably learned going through this, that we just didn't even wrap our head around a lot of people.
[00:21:21] You know, most people, maybe not most people, but a lot of people didn't wrap their head around. Um, yeah, that's, that's a very interesting take. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, you know, the idea of, um, again, you know, referring to Marlon, Marlon, one of the things that he said, well, he put, I think he put it best. He said, you know what, my, my neighbors, you know, really haven't talked to me in five years, but then all of a sudden, you know, the pandemic rises and, and everyone's texting me.
[00:21:48] I had no idea they even had my number, you know, and now all of a sudden I'm everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Me too. You know, everybody's, you know, I'm everyone's best friend, but, you know, but the idea was, you know, and he said, and I, I didn't, I wanted people to, to, to, to hear me and I wanted to help people. Certainly. I didn't want to do it under duress, you know, and, and, you know, and I wanted, but, but, you know, you know, I didn't want it to be in the moment. You know, I wanted people to seek me out earlier, but, you know, I'm, you know, glad that I, you know, glad that I did.
[00:22:19] Sure. You know, um, uh, you know, glad that I made me glad that he was helpful, you know, to people. And he was glad that they reached out. But like you said, we all had those, you know, those experiences. I mean, we definitely had people reach out as neighbors. You probably too, who didn't know there were benefits included. You know what I mean? Like people who didn't know anything about my background or anything like that, who reached out and just said, if you need anything, you know, reach out, let me know.
[00:22:49] I had more than one neighbor have that conversation with me and I thought, wow, that's pretty cool because, uh, you know, they, they're probably not as prepared for this as I am. And they're reaching out to help. That's a good thing. Yeah.
[00:23:03] And, and, and, and one of the interesting things that, you know, people probably don't, you know, think about in terms of, you know, the city was that there were, you know, people, again, independent preppers, you know, who had organized within their apartment building, um, um, you know, a, um, uh, a help network, you know, um, who already had sort of things in plan, you know, things, but, you know, there were already preppers already thinking about, you know, what can we do as an apartment building to help one another? As a community.
[00:23:32] So that's something that people don't think about because whenever there's a disaster, we were all thinking what, that there was going to be, you know, some horrible thing and we were all going to have to flee the city. Right. Fortunately, preppers prepared for both circumstances, bugging out and bugging it. Right. So, and so the thing was, you know, there were some apartment buildings where things were, you know, where, where things were already set in place to help people.
[00:23:55] You know, there were preppers there who, you know, could, you know, provide advice, um, and, um, a sense of, of, I don't want to say control because certainly, you know, there's a level of unpredictability in a disaster, but kind of a sense of calm. Stability maybe. Stability, I think is, is, you know, the, you know, the perfect word and that was needed everywhere. You're not just in New York, but, you know, New York was tough.
[00:24:21] We were the city's, um, excuse me, we're the country's epicenter and within, um, New York, we were also the epicenter. We also had our own epicenter within an epicenter. The hotspot for us for, for quite a while, you know, was, you know, Queens. And, um, you know, we saw hospitals overwhelmed. I think that what happened to us is a microcosm, uh, is, is a good, and this is why I wrote about it, a really good, like case study of, of really how challenging the pandemic was.
[00:24:50] And one geographic area where they kind of experienced all the things that could go wrong. Yeah. Well, that's it, you know, that, and I hope that lesson isn't lost. I guess that's kind of listening to you. Yeah. Listening to you and thinking about your books. That's kind of exactly what comes to mind is if you have these books, then you can be reminded.
[00:25:12] And people do need to be reminded that no matter what the outcomes were, you know, long-term, now we're years away looking back and all that kind of stuff. It is important to know that, that this likely will happen again in terms of pandemic. And we have a serious amount of knowledge now to figure out, like, how to better manage it, you know? And I hope that the general population took a little bit of note as well, not just government and, you know, medical and all that.
[00:25:42] But even then, you know, there's, I mean, I'd love your thoughts on this, you know, at the end of the day. There's only so much storage space for stuff in terms of the medical response. There's only so much budget, line item budget for certain things and medicines. There's no way of knowing what you're going to need in advance. So there's no matter how good the government gets or the medical establishment gets at responding to things, there's so much unknown with pandemics.
[00:26:09] It's like, you almost have to have, you almost have to have that built-in, bug-in, wait-for-things-to-level-out sort of timeframe and plan built-in, don't you think? Yes, yes. And I think that for preppers, I think it's that, you know, given your lifestyle, given what you think about, there's a sense of a resolve that people have and understanding a bit more patience with the difficult. Yeah. I think.
[00:26:40] And, you know, New York, we're the land of immediate gratification. You can have what you want whenever you want it, 24 hours a day, right? And, you know, we're the place of pleasure and vice. And so I think that it was a real challenge, you know, not necessarily for preppers, but for some people to realize, okay, hold on. I have to slow down. I can't have what I want. You know, I have to first back up for a moment and think, what do I need? Right.
[00:27:37] Right. I study prepping and they always want to talk with me about, and I don't mean preppers. I mean, not, you know, people who don't prep. They always want to talk with me about what I'm doing, what I'm worried about. Right. Oh, they want heads up. And then they want to share, yeah, what they, you know, what they're thinking about doing or have done. And what I realized was, you know, it's also too, for some people, many people like an issue of control.
[00:28:05] If they feel like they always wanted like the okay, you know, yeah, you're going to be just fine. You know, but you can't guarantee that you can do the best that you can. You know, and the crazy thing about New York is that, you know, with the start of this, you know, 21st century, New York has encountered.
[00:28:24] And I even have a chart in both of my books, every single category of disaster that, you know, preppers worry about, you know, from finance to natural disasters, you know, to pandemic, to technological, you know, to the Great Recession. All of it, you know, and it takes a certain amount of hustle to be able to respond to that. And like you said, it's not really about stacking up things, you know, in your home.
[00:28:52] It's about being able to just kind of mentally go the distance. So one of the things that I, that was interesting for me in doing this research and, you know, when attending, you know, online meetings and speaking with other preppers was that there was this huge, huge, I'm going to say unexpected outcome. And that was that preppers also were provided emotional support to one another.
[00:29:19] And that doesn't mean that they were weak, you know, but somebody loses their job. Certainly they want to talk about it, you know, go money, unless, you know, you're one of the H&W preppers, you know, it's, it's going to disappear. Right. Yeah. You know, so, yeah. Yeah. So, so that people could, you know, could lean on, you know, each other because there certainly were, you know, dark, you know, dark times.
[00:29:44] One of the things that I talk about in the book and one of the reasons why I wrote the book is that, you know, someone said to me, I was at an event last week and someone said, yeah, you know, I don't know if I really, I mean, it was a beautiful sunny day. So I totally got it. And they found out, you know, they came, they realized that I just published a book and they said, what's it about? And, you know, and I, you know, explained and they said, oh, you know, I don't want to read anything dark about the pandemic.
[00:30:12] You know, I want to forget all about that. And then I thought, you know what? That's the problem. You know, we can't, you know, we can't. Because, you know, the contagion, that movie with Matt Damon. Oh, yeah. That was the most downloaded movie. It was a book became a blockbuster again in 2020. Of course. Even though that movie was so old because people were trying to learn. Right. And in the book, you know, look, the pandemic, if I had to say in a sentence affected all of us. Right.
[00:30:42] Everything from the ordinary to the sacred. Definitely. And that's what we need to think about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And look at look at all possibilities that way, you know. And the bristling against the building of fortified communities, I guess, is because of the prepper stigma and, you know, that kind of thing. But it really does just seem like we've reached a point as a society where we are capable of doing this.
[00:31:12] You know what I mean? Like, we don't need to look to the past and say, well, we never had to do it that way before. Or this is the way we used to do it. Like, I do think that where we're at with preparedness in general and probably some homesteading as well is like we need to get more creative about what what a regular community should look like and be capable of and not look to the good old days or anything.
[00:31:34] Like, really get imaginative and say, if we could set up the communities perfectly for the next pandemic, like, what would that look like? Communities in your communities and, you know, wherever. It doesn't matter. But what should it look like? You know, because I think people really get get hung up in like this is what a community is and what it's capable of in compared to like a comparison. Comparing it to communities of old or something like that.
[00:32:00] Instead of thinking, like, with all the technology, with all the information that we have now, what could it really like? How how fortified can a community be for disaster? Because one thing we know, Anna, is they're coming. You know what I mean? They always come. They're going to keep coming. It doesn't matter if it's a pandemic or whatever it is. You know, I remember seeing the hurricane Sandy and being like, I never, never crossed my mind that that island could flood like that.
[00:32:29] And then you say it out loud and you go, oh, yeah, it's an island. Probably floods pretty bad from time to time. You know, it usually doesn't. And that's the scary thing. And I think that's what fools. You know, that's that that's what fools people. I think that you've made an excellent point. And I would like to add an example to it. Please. When you were talking about, you know, trying to figure out how the language I would use to be would be to move forward, to take a look at what a prepared community would look like.
[00:32:59] One of the things that. Preppers, just like the rest of the world, discovered that when it came to educating their children, OK, that, you know, they're not experts. Right. And it in the trouble was, you know, with, you know, kids learning from home. What did we discover? However, we were reminded of the significance of the digital divide. Right.
[00:33:21] The fact that, you know, the kids who could continue to do well in school were the kids who had technology, who had high speed Internet access. Right. And who could attend class via Zoom. Right. As preppers, we don't as preppers, we're thinking we're not going to have it. You know, you know, preppers, you know, in terms of the training, think always back to basics. Right. Right. Not the fact that you're going to be stuck in a place. But in terms of technology, it's still going to be available.
[00:33:51] Right. And so we need to think about that as well. What would we need? You know, to again, people have learned, I hope, you know, this, you know, this lesson, you know, because when you're thinking about packing your bug out bag, you're thinking about leaving. Right. When you're thinking about bugging in, you're thinking about store, you know, stores, you're thinking about food, you're thinking about medicine. You're not thinking about, you know, a surface tablet, you know, a Chromebook. You know, you're not thinking about high speed Internet. How is your child going to learn? You're not thinking that at all.
[00:34:21] But we certainly realized, you know, that that was something, you know. So when we think about a fortified community, we would think we apparently need to think about access to technology. Certainly, you know what we because we know what to do if we don't have it. But if the world's moving on, that's part of being fortified. Right. Right. Yeah. I think it also in the same vein, open people's eyes up to.
[00:34:45] Oh, what happens when we have to react to this education system, which is also a meal system, which is also a babysitter so that I can go work and my wife can go work and not have to think about it for, you know, six hours. Whatever it is that the kids at school, aftercare, before care, all that. There's a huge infrastructure that was set up so that everybody could go to work and make lots of money. And immediately when the pandemic hit, I mean, I work from home, thank God.
[00:35:14] So it didn't really affect us at all. But lots of people out there in the world had to go, oh, well, I need someone at home with the kids now. You know what I mean? That was a serious figuring out. And I saw I was lucky enough that I worked at our dining room table and my son who was in my other my youngest was in preschool, which actually they never closed. And then my son who was in grade school at the time was doing the digital learning.
[00:35:42] And he just did it right next to me at the table. So that was really cool. But what I heard a lot of were kids who were lying about being home alone. And he was in third grade and it was very clear that they were home alone. They weren't paying attention. And the teacher would sometimes ask, could you go get your mom? And they would work around that with preplanned lines. You know what I mean? You could tell that mom and dad in the shower. Yeah, something along those lines.
[00:36:12] And it really opened my eyes to that. Like I felt really bad because I realized everybody in that house is in a bind that's unimaginable. Right. I've got to leave you here because I've got to go to work. You've got to learn. You've got to do your best here. I got hopefully some kind of meal plan set up for you so you can eat easy lunches, that kind of stuff. And it was just like all that was pulled out from under people, too. And they're just, you know, and that's something you can hardly even prepare for, really.
[00:36:39] Even as a prepper, unless you, you know, make massive career change in order to be available all the time and be at home. But, yeah, those things we, those things I think do get overlooked and forgotten pretty quick, you know? Yeah. And you've made an excellent observation. I think also babysitting, like you said, it's, you know, this is what your child does. So you, when you go out and earn money in that moment, it was a big challenge.
[00:37:09] But also, too, for poor communities and you hit on this, you know, sometimes that's two meals a day. Oh, yeah. That, yeah. You know, breakfast and, you know, and lunch. And so there was access to, you know, proper nutrition. You know, there were a lot of kids who were already hungry, even hungrier. Yeah. Yeah, that was a tough one. I don't know how they handled it in New York. They handled it pretty well here in Richmond. There was deliveries and stuff like that.
[00:37:37] But, yeah, I mean, I'm sure there were communities all over the place where kids were just kind of like, whoop, I guess I'll go hungry today. Yeah. Well, James, remember when we saw, you know, across the nation, all those cars in line to get food? Oh, right. Yeah. Remember, that was terrible. Absolutely crazy. Yeah. You know, yeah, that was terrible. I remember, and then, you know, in the city, and, of course, what happened?
[00:38:03] And a lot of, and this, again, you know, gets the idea of, you know, not, you know, government and, you know, nonprofits, you know, can't, you know, can't solve all. Because you started to have, you know, food pantries be closed, which led to increase the, you know, the pain that people were feeling. Because, you know, they weren't open because of COVID. They didn't have enough laborers, so they couldn't distribute food. They couldn't collect and distribute food, which made things, you know, even, you know, even more challenging.
[00:38:31] One of the things that we did at Queens College, which when I say we, I wasn't a part of this, but I thought that this was really, really, really amazing, was that, because people don't really think about college kids, right? We think about elementary and we think about, and what they did was they put together a mobile pantry. And you could, and it was basically a food truck that would, you know, drive to your neighborhood and help supply groceries to your family if you were part of the Queens College community.
[00:39:01] I wonder how many other colleges did. Probably plenty of them, and we don't know. I mean, like a lot of, you know, with hurricanes, with hurricanes that hit North Carolina, all that devastation. You know, in the South, there were Southern schools that came and helped, like Wake Forest, you know, certainly helped. You know, there were college kids who went out and did things. So when we think about resilience, I think we're all really thinking about it.
[00:39:28] And, you know, preppers are at the front line for, you know, being conduits for change and for information resources, for leadership. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe having those channels open and those grooves well greased so that in a situation like that, we say, fire up the grocery bus again. You know what I mean? We have that plan in place. That's probably a good thing and probably something we shouldn't forget because it's, you know, it's trauma. It is trauma.
[00:39:57] So people automatically think, put it behind you, move on type of thing. And there's a lot to, you know, a lot to be left. But the third, I don't want to call it like the third part of your latest book, but it's broken into class resilience and sheltering in place. And I wanted to know if you had what kind of, you know, best takes you had with the sheltering in place that you learned from people or that you yourself experienced or wrote about in the book.
[00:40:24] Because it is, I mean, I always talk about it, you know, bugging out is cool and good to have a plan and all that kind of stuff. But we've been through a lot over my lifetime and sheltering in place is what people do. You know what I mean? The vast majority of people go, I'm staying home and we're going to weather this storm as long as we can. It's not like a legion of people bug out every time something bad happens. So I'd be interested in your takes on that.
[00:40:50] I think the important thing to remember, too, is it costs money to bug out. You need somewhere to go, especially if you have a family and not everyone has, you know, safe, you know, safe houses. You know, risk are. Yeah, it is. It is definitely risky in terms of best takeaway. The best takeaway is always, of course, to be prepared. Right. You know, just, you know, don't you know, you have a stash of N95 masks. Don't throw them away. Keep them. Right.
[00:41:18] You know, the idea of not being complacent. And I guess, you know, I don't think preppers rely too much on their laurels. You know, I think that, you know, it's people are always trying to figure out what they can change, you know, what they can what they can improve in terms of best takeaways, things that people did really well, I think would be the exchange of providing mutual aid to one another.
[00:41:47] Both preppers and non-preppers. I think that we saw really how important that was. That's a good one, yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then I also think, too, rethinking home. And when I say rethinking, you know, in some ways this is almost about homesteading. One of the things that I thought was really interesting that New Yorker preppers were good at because they live in small spaces. They're used to reimagining things and being able to quickly pivot.
[00:42:16] In other words, say, OK, this corner now, this is going to be the school. You know, this is going to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, the idea of being able to, you know, think quickly and, you know, to re-imagine, you know, your home life. That was huge. That was huge. Yeah, it was. Yeah. I remember firsthand going through that. Yeah. Yeah. The gyms closed. That became a big thing. You know, now we need a gym in our little house. You know what I mean? I don't live in a mansion. So it was like, where are we going to pick that at?
[00:42:46] Right, right, right. But that's a great point. Yeah. And I think, again, you know, creativity and ingenuity, I don't, you know, I really do think that that's a best takeaway. One of the coolest things that I saw with the pandemic was having school outside, you know, at the start and at the end of the pandemic. You know, walking down the street and seeing, you know, the street, you know, closed off and it being just classrooms. Oh, that's sweet.
[00:43:16] I never heard of that either. Yeah, it was super. I mean, it was, you know, it was super cool. You know, the idea of, you know, thinking, you know, outside of the box that way. Yeah. And, you know, trying to better understand, I would say better coming together as a community. Like, for example, one of the things that has changed about the East Village, which is near where I live, one of the things that has started is there now some community fridges. Yes.
[00:43:45] So in the event, because, of course, people had lost jobs and people wanted to donate, but, you know, food pantries were closed and people wanted to help each other. So they would establish in, you know, a certain small business or a certain area, an actual refrigerator and then dry goods where people could come and pick up, drop stuff off and pick stuff up without contacting one another. Sure. I mean, without, you know, contracting something. Yeah. And that's the state. That innovation. It's the pandemic.
[00:44:12] We didn't hear enough about that innovation in New York. No. No. You know? Yeah. No, you know, we didn't. And it was, you know, and it was, when I pull out all these good, you know, these wonderful things that sounds so sweet and so charming and it sounds like Mayberry. And there was, believe it or not, a certain extent of that, but there were also times where it was really scary.
[00:44:37] Like we, you know, decided it was very hard to get, you know, again, we had a big regular size freezer in our apartment, even though it took up a lot of space. And we had, you know, you know, a thing, but, you know, every once in a while we would need to, you know, go out and get things. And the grocery store closest to us, you know, they weren't taking care of their employees. They didn't have proper, you know, proper protection. So we, you know, so we walked a mile to the grocery store.
[00:45:07] And during that mile, you know, there were areas that were once very safe. You know, miles, nothing. You know, walking a mile has seen nothing. Really, it's just a few blocks, you know, in the city. But the whole point was there were some areas that you had to avoid because there were people just sitting out in what would have been, you know, a really affluent area. You know, in certain sections, just sitting and, you know, getting high, taking heroin, you know, shooting up. You know, so you had to avoid that kind of stuff, you know.
[00:45:35] So routes changed and parts of the city changed and you had to be aware of that and make plans around that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in our apartment building, I think by the end of March, early April, there were, I think, 15 apartments on the floor. And there were only three occupied. Wow. Yeah. So a lot of people left, you know, a lot of people who were affluent left. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:46:05] Get me out of here. Yeah. And that's a whole nother thing. But, oh, and in terms of education, you know, I think that the best takeaway would be, you know, trying to make sure that you have technology set up for your child. And that you, in the event there's no technology, that you have textbooks from the actual grade grade so that they can keep on doing what they're supposed to. Which keeps you sane. Yeah. There's some, I wish I had them right here in arm's length, but there's some great books that I bought in the beginning of that year, 2020.
[00:46:34] They were, I want to say they were 120 days learning. I think that's what the title was or something like that. It was something along those lines and they have them for every grade. You know what I mean? And I figured at the very least, you know, if what I was thinking is if school closes and everything's done and I'm teacher or my wife's teacher, we can at least have these books that have paperwork in them. You know, worksheets and that kind of stuff.
[00:47:02] And then also be primed with, you know, we can expand on it. Just being, you know, people, adults teaching what would have been a third grader at the time. You know what I mean? So having those and they're super cheap. That's the big thing about it. I think they were like 15 bucks, something like that. 15 bucks and it had every day planned out. They still sell them on Amazon. Maybe I'll link to them down in the show description for the listeners. They have every, you know, a day today, Monday, do this, this, this, and this type of thing.
[00:47:32] You can buy them for social studies, math, science, all that kind of stuff. And they just seemed like the best answer at the time, just in case, you know, to have those. And that could be, you know, civil unrest. That could be economic, whatever the situation is. If you think that education is going to be affected, they're a good little secondary option for sure. Yeah, that's a good, yeah, that's, that's good.
[00:47:55] And one of the things that we're doing, speaking of the post-pandemic world, one of the things that we're seeing now is, you know, unfortunately, the effects that, you know, the pandemic has had on our students in terms of, you know, their ability to, to read and write. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. That's, you know, that's a whole can of worms. It is. It is. And this is something that we, you know, have to, you know, contend with. Yeah. No doubt about it.
[00:48:21] So you're, where do you get your books if people want to buy them? Well, you know, that's a good, the best advice that I have. And I'm not, you know, remember I teach, you know, at, at the college level, the advice that I would, would do is to take note of the textbook that they have at the beginning of the semester. You can order these on Amazon. You can rent these, you know, you. Oh no, I mean your book. Oh, my book. Yeah, both. I'm so worried about my students. Yeah, I know it. Yeah. My book. Thank you so much.
[00:48:51] My book is available on Amazon. It's available on Barnes and Noble. Okay. Yeah. They can search it up and you'll find it. Yeah. I wasn't sure if it was an educational exclusively or not. Right. No, no, it's not. It's available on Amazon and you can get it from the e-book and the paperback are, of course, are, you know, substantially cheaper. So it'd probably be, it'd probably be best to search your author title, right? Anna Marie Bounds. Yeah. You can go to Anna Marie. On Amazon. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:49:21] Anna Marie Bounds. Yes. And on Amazon. And I also have a website, which is AnnaMariaBounds.com. Okay. There you go. Yeah. And that'll bring you to a link too. Yeah. It'll bring you to, yes. And it'll bring you to, you know, a link to purchase the book. Is our time over? I'm so sorry. This is a wonderful interview and I'm learning so much. I mean, it doesn't have to be over, but. Yeah. No, it's over. It's over. And if we, you know, if you need to stop recording, that's okay.
[00:49:49] But there is something that I want, I would like to hear from, from you about. And I would like us to talk a little bit about. Let's do it. And the current uncertainty that we have about the U.S. economy, the moment that we're in and how, what you think are some good strategies. And, you know, I'd like to talk about, you know, this is something that everyone needs to be concerned about. You know, whether you, you know, voted for the president or you didn't vote for the president, you know, this is a very extremely stressful time.
[00:50:16] You know, these, these, the possibility of these upcoming tariffs. And this is what we get, you know, and, you know, there's now talk of, of a recession and you, there's a lot to be concerned about in terms of how you prepare your family for a moment like this and what you do. One thing I would do right off the bat is that R word, you just live in that R word, to be honest with you, because that thing comes up every other week anymore.
[00:50:43] It doesn't matter who's, but it seems like the last, I don't know, 12 years of my life, we've been on the brink. Whenever I like, we're on the brink of something for so long that it's driving you crazy. You've got to just get it out of the vocab. You know what I mean? We're on the brink of a recession forever. So then prepare like there, you're in a recession. You know what I mean? That's just it. Like the, I'm always thinking about the, the things that you can bring into the fam, into the household, the things that you can grow and raise for the household.
[00:51:13] I think those are good places to start. One of the things that's really helped and not everybody's receptive to this kind of stuff, but it is, it, it has changed dramatically. And I always recommend it to our audience is when I was young and you, you went thrift shopping, you were like rummaging through trash. You know what I mean? And it was really weird. And it was one of those things where it was like, I don't even know if I want to tell people when you go thrift shopping.
[00:51:37] Now you're thrift shopping in 2025 America, which is, you know, I wore it once and sent it to the thrift. I never used it and it stayed in the box and sent it to the thrift. So like, if you're really hard pressed, like thrift shop, go to the thrift stores in your area. You'll be surprised. It's not what it was even 10 years ago. So many people have so much crap. We buy so much crap and most of it just winds up either in the trash or at these places.
[00:52:06] And I mean, there's just so many things there. I go to a thrift shop where you can have any, you can buy any book you want for like a dollar, $2. Any, it doesn't matter how new it is. Hardback doesn't matter. $2. And once you start doing that, I'm not saying, you know, go buy your next pair of shoes at the thrift store. But like, once you start doing that, it, it totally breaks you down from going and spending $35 on a book or something like that. You know what I mean? That, that doesn't mean that much to you.
[00:52:35] You're like, oh my God, like I need spoons. I'm going to go to the thrift shop and get spoons instead of buying a four pack of spoons from Target for $40 or whatever it is. So, you know, integrating those, as you talked about with like lifestyle and those kinds of things, I think integrating preparedness into your lifestyle is a good first step because look, the CEOs of Target and Walmart are already talking about the fact that this is going to be tough. You know what I mean?
[00:53:02] That they're in two to three months, we're going to see the effects of what's happening with tariffs and so on. And you know, that that's a great window. You know, like you said, don't rest on your laurels at this moment because that's a great window to, to do something about it. Figure out at the very least you can figure out what am I going to need in the next two to three months and beyond. What's fall going to look like? What's, you know, maybe Christmas going to look like that kind of thing.
[00:53:27] If things go real bad and you can get a head start on it, you know, and so much of prepping is foreshadowing. You know what I mean? So much of it is being able to say. We kind of know where things are going to go, and if we overdo it. What's the big deal? Like they say you just bought all your Christmas presents in the summer. You know what I mean? Or, or a good chunk of, you know, December comes along and you're just like, sweet. I'm, I can just go to the light shows, you know?
[00:53:57] Exactly. Right. I can actually have fun rather than fight for a parking space. But no matter how you look at it, tariffs or no tariffs, we're in the, we're in a massive rebuild of whatever manufacturing. It's clear that like the manufacturing in America is a thing and we want to bring it back. And even if we bring it back, we don't know if it'll go a hundred percent well. You know what I mean? So I think we're just in a time of serious makeover here in the United States.
[00:54:27] And every step of that's going to be fraught with peril. It's sort of like, you know, look at the country as a, like a business that's, that's changing in a big way. Like we're having this major change in our business. Well, you know, there's going to be some instability. There's going to be some things that work, some things that really don't work. And, uh, you know, the difference is of course, a business has its working capital that it can pull off of. And for us, it's us, you know, it's what do we have? So yeah, it's, it's a lifestyle thing.
[00:54:56] You have to treat it as a lifestyle thing. It's not a, let me prep real quick for this thing and then stop prepping. And then, you know, believe it or not, we have a ton of people right now. I don't know if you're this plugged in that you felt this or not, but we maybe not so much going into the summer with everything that's happening, plus the wars, but on at the beginning of the year, we call it the Trump slump in the prepper community. That's what we call it.
[00:55:21] The Trump slump because it happened in 2016 too, but, um, probably all the way up until March, like traffic to, um, regular prepping blogs, our podcasts, um, you know, anybody who's selling sort of prepper centric stuff, they all were complaining. They were like, man, traffic's so down. It's so down. It's crazy. Like, like they're, they, people think everything is saved. You know what I mean?
[00:55:49] And, uh, we gotta be aware of that no matter who's in power, because it's not that easy. It's not, if it was as easy as putting one guy in power and everything's fine, then we would Caesar it. You know what I mean? And we would have a good life, but you know, no, no, certainly, yeah, certainly not the case. Yeah. I, you know, I agree with you. It's funny. I love thrift stores too. You know, it's, it's kind of, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of a treasure hunt. You know, it's, it's, it's fun and it's a very, and it's a very different game.
[00:56:16] Like you said, like when I was a kid, you know, I was interested, you know, I considered myself, although I was probably more of a nerd than anything like a punk rocker. So I would go and try and find cool clothes, you know, at the thrift store. But, you know, but now I'm like, oh, hold on. You know, this still has the price tags on it. You know, this is amazing. Yeah. You know, so I, you know, definitely get, you know, um, so I think that one of the interesting things that the preppers are doing, and I think a lot of the mainstream community right
[00:56:44] now, you know, given their anxiety about the economy is they're definitely saving more, you know, and when I say saving more, they're, they're doing things, um, putting, um, holding off major purchases, you know, are buying something right now, you know, before the tariffs kick in that they think they might really need it. You know, also, um, doing things like, um, um, uh, we used to think about gold money, right? But someone used a phrase that I think is really great. Stay afloat money.
[00:57:14] That's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and, and increasing, you know, uh, you know, adding to that, you know, um, You know, another good one too, outside of the thrift and the prepping community didn't have anything to do with this, but it's the, uh, buy nothing communities. They're. Yes. And I think, yes, yes. The gifting communities. And I think that I actually might write about those because that's very important. You know, people, um, you know, um, uh, not just donating things that they no longer need,
[00:57:42] but the idea of being able to put, I don't know. Are you a member of one of them? Mom, my wife is, I am not. Oh yeah. So it's, it's incredible. Like, you know, my, my neighborhood here in the city in Stuyvesant, you could say, Hey, you know, you can say, I would, you know, I really need a ladder for today. You know, I'm, I need this. I need that, you know, in the community response, you know, when they'll say, Oh, I have this, you can come by and get it. You know, again, you know, it's just like people, what people did previously. Right.
[00:58:10] And there was some moment where we kind of missed that, you know, we got, we became so I'll say, um, self-obsessed that we forgot how helpful and kind we can be to one another. And I think these gifting communities for sure. I, um, last week I was going on travel and I had some, you know, a lot of organic groceries and still in my refrigerator. So I just put out a note and someone came and picked them up. They didn't go to waste. Right. Yeah.
[00:58:40] And again, those things also work really well because we have so much stuff that we don't use or we have used so little. It's unbelievable. So you can find the thing that exactly you need literally for free in these communities. And it's something someone's hardly ever used and they probably are tripping over it saying, I got to find a place for this. This has to go to storage or it has to go up in the attic. I got to put it under the house, whatever the situation is. And, you know, it's just, yeah, there's, like I said, there's just that, that whole vision
[00:59:10] of what a community could look like, um, to work together and to work with each other outside of, cause really I think the main symptom Anna is the convenience of the commodification of everything and the convenience that was kind of brought onto us, I guess, through the latter 50s, 60s, and then built enormous, right. To the point where people decided we don't need people. We need Walmart. You know what I mean? We don't need each other.
[00:59:39] We need what target has, what Kmart has. They have everything I need. I don't need anything from them. Like we were really brainwashed for a species that depended on each other for so long. We were really brainwashed pretty quick to be like, we don't need the people. We just need the places that sell the things that I want, you know, until they go away. Yeah. Until they go away. Then you're like, Oh, whoa.
[01:00:31] So. Wow. But there's something to be said for that. You know, having, you know, items available, you know, for everybody, you know, in the, you know, in the building, at least to be helpful, not necessarily that you can feed everyone forever. That's not possible. You know, but there was, there was some kind of an important community component there that was, was lost. You know, the fact that there was, you know, there was equipment that was medicine. There were food stores and all of this just rotted, you know, it was rotated out and it
[01:00:59] was thrown away, but we don't think, you know, we don't think that way anymore, which is a real, but I hope that you and I, you know, through today that we're, we're changing the world. But there's no doubt about it. Yeah. There's no doubt about it. We, one of the things that will probably be my favorite thing about what we do here at PBN is we get emails, we get, uh, you know, texts and messages through different messaging
[01:01:25] apps that people, real people telling us what they've done over the last three years, listening to us and how their lives are changed because of it, you know? So it definitely has an effect. There's no doubt about it. People hear it. People see what you're doing and hear what you're writing about and they take action. Not everybody takes action, but there's a certain amount of people that take action and it, it changes them. You know, just the sheer anxiety, the sheer anxiety that must go down from being completely
[01:01:52] unprepared in a moment like this to having basic preparedness, looking at the world the way it is right now has to be, I mean, we talk about mental health in this country so much, like it should go mental health preparedness. You know what I mean? Like what's the first thing to do? Yeah. You've made a good point. I mean, and you know, we have now my, um, um, my colleague, Chris Elliott does, um, uses FEMA research and he's showing that, um, uh, you know, to analyze what he calls prepared
[01:02:19] citizens, the number of, of people who do some level of, of, of prepping. And, um, I think about 20 million now, but of course it's growing, you know, when those are documented, you know, um, uh, documented people. And again, there's plenty that we don't know about, but, uh, but like you said, I think, uh, you really, and today talked about the idea of prepping being, uh, an expression of self
[01:02:48] reliance and mutual dependency all at once. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good point. Yeah. It works both ways for sure. Well, Anna, that was phenomenal conversation. Thank you. We'd love to have you back anytime you'd like to come back. New book releases or anything along those lines, you know, we make, we make room for guests all the time because everybody's got a good take, you know? Well, I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much. I learned, uh, you know, a great deal today.
[01:03:18] And, um, the most important thing is I've kind of, I've got that good vibe. That's sort of, you know, reassurance that, you know, we're all out, you know, you know, you know, doing things and, and, uh, trying to help one another. I'll tell you what, well, I'll talk to you about something after we finish up that I think you would really like. All right. Um, all right, folks. It was a pleasure, everyone. Thank you. Good luck with your preps.
[01:03:46] Anna Maria Bounds, ladies and gentlemen, get her books. All right. We will see you, uh, on the other side. Adios.
